Second Life "merchant" may have your textures

Beliria, I just added this below your comment on Xstreet:

"I use Filter Forge too and can confirm that all of the textures here were designed by Beliria & not you. These textures (along with all of your others here) seem to have been copied directly from the Filter Forge website, so I've no idea how you "elaborated" them because they are identical to those on the website."

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Beliria wrote: they are under the impression they and people like them can just access the textures on the website and sell them.

----There's no difference between that (above) and grabbing the demo and rendering them out.

----Ya'll just don't want to face it, once it's in the library, then it's public domain. FF is not going to commit "business suicide" and say the library filter presets can't be rendered out and sold. It's N-O-T going to happen. And, even if their EULA said that, they're not going to waste time chasing people selling them for $5 here and there (and I'm not either, I just quit submitting anything I intend to sell myself, same as you should).

jffe

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James wrote: They have ruined the community trust and the quality of the library also

----Nope. They may have slowed the growth of the library down a bit, but overall it is expanding at a decent rate, and there's still an editor's pick every month. The whole "trust" thing, has to do with maybe 3-4 over zealous folks like yourself. By way of making things known, you just create more problems by raising awareness (when there is no democracy here, there'll be no vote, Vlad decides, and obviously already has for a year or more simply by not changing things). I learned a bit of that lesson a year ago or so, ie = one of the first times this un-merry-go-round did a circle.

jffe

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James wrote: Hmm so you think it's my and others fault because we post our view,

----Making it seem worse to yourself and the very people here who care, yes, that is the fault of those who hang on to one side when the other is the majority. Doesn't make it wrong, but it is your fault/battle.

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James wrote: you can try to twist it as much as you want but people will find out anyway sooner or later

----I've lectured the FF masses (all 8 or so of them ha-ha) to death about protecting their work and what copy"rights" mean in real-life/at ground zero. I was as bad or worse than you a year or two ago. I got over it. Some people will take the time to learn, the rest will just complain and wish things were some other way. Ie= people will "twist" things in their head in whatever direction, me and a few other's pointing out the facts of the situation, don't seem to slow them down much ha-ha. Then again, the majority of grown ups still believe in gawd, and not the fact-based theory of evolution, so yeah, case in point.


----If you think it's important, please do continue to speak out. But for the sake of those of us who actually read these forums, maybe mix it up once in a while. Like new idea time, and feel free to tell Stevie the same might help for his cause(s), although his ideas have at least gotten a bit more complex, the complaints are still the same, and FF is still ignoring them.

Peace,
jffe

Guys, it is time to let this EULA thing rest. It has been going on for years and years as far as I can tell and it is really not pleasant for newcomers to the site to see this sort of thing going on all the time.

There is little to excite the old timers in the library because of the simple fact that there are now thousands of filters in the library already and perhaps the limited tool set we are all working with has been exhausted. Hopefully the new version will bring new things to play with and we will all be able to make something a bit more unique. However, in a year or two time we will once again be complaining that it has all been done already.

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James wrote: Lol, no it's expanding all right but with lots of 1 preset/quick made filters. A few decent ones from time to time yes, i never said there were not still good ones but the general quality is going down hill and the quantity is increasing no doubt in hopes of a free copy with mods of previous ones adding to the samey/similar thing you see with FF.

James, as time goes on and filter forge becomes more known, more and more newcomers are using filter forge. The filters they produce are perhaps not as advanced as you would like but they are a valuable contribution to the library. I am sure not all the old timers were fantastic in their early months with FF. Besides, what you hate, another person may love. I know there are many 'unique' filters in the library that I have absolutely no use for and it would be a shame if that was all there was in the library. Also with all the scare mongering going on, it is really surprising that people do not want to contribute more than one preset? These forums will help in the success or failure of Filter Forge and at the moment some of the input is certainly not going to help it succeed.

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James wrote: The scare/fear mongering come from the fact that people find their work or lots of library stuff on stock sites etc so it's likely if it's good their work will follow the same path,

Yes, and that is why I have put my textures found at the site mentioned in the first post on ShareCG and posted them to some sites I think people will find a use for them. If they can get them for free then the person who is selling my textures is not going to make much money. This guy seems to have taken the images from this website and this has nothing to do with the EULA but with the following which is part of the terms of using this website:

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Beliria wrote: You agree not to copy, republish, frame, make available for download, transmit, modify, rent, lease, loan, sell, assign, distribute, license, sublicense, reverse engineer, or create derivative works based on the Website, its Products or its Services. Except as otherwise provided, the Content published on this Website may be reproduced or distributed in unmodified form for personal non-commercial use only. Any other use of the Content, including without limitation distribution, reproduction, modification, display or transmission without the prior written consent of Filter Forge is strictly prohibited. All copyright and other proprietary notices shall be retained on all reproductions.

This person ignored this. I doubt he has Filter Forge at all as he did not seem to know much about Filter Forge in his response to Beliria so the EULA would not affect him.

I could go to a great deal of trouble to try to stop him selling my textures but for one dollar or so it is not really worth it. My solution is just to offer my textures for free and to get people to spread the word that they are free. Then hopefully he/she will not sell any of my textures in SecondLife in any case.

I feel sorry for anybody who pays for something they could get for free.

Apart from that, scumbags like this Siberian guy/group don't bother me all that much. There are much worse things they could be doing.

Sounds like you are playing Scrabble, jffe.....

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jffe wrote: mix it up once in a while. Like new idea time, and feel free to tell Stevie the same might help for his cause(s), although his ideas have at least gotten a bit more complex, the complaints are still the same, and FF is still ignoring them.

Well, my only "cause" is to see this program be successful so it will be enhanced for my own use.....and yes, I'm doing it for a selfish reason..... Just because no one at FF has been responding to my suggestions lately, doesn't necessarily mean that they are ignoring them or think they are bad, eh???

I may be wrong, but by the way things look to me, I think FF is going to have to start addressing author protection and incentives sooner than later. Vlad will probably give Craig and Dilla credit for making the suggestions but I don't care.....just so long as something is done about it.....

I don't know about second life texture stores making much but i know the actual SL program/world is very popular. I think if they have a lot of people visiting all the time they no doubt get lots of traffic. For some reason people go for cheap buys even when they don't need things and with the right traffic then things like that can sometimes make a lot more money than higher priced packs.

I doubt they do make that much though but im sure they make some. For right clicking and saving a image then uploading it again with a title even them making $50-150 a year would still be a slap in the face to FF filter creators imo. Add a backhand in for good measure considering they uploaded for free most likely to share/learn from in the first place. As far as i see it no matter what resolution, site or however pro looking the package is if they did nothing but render or save presets and sell it's all the same.

It sounds like Revoye means they won't buy FF because they can simply download the sample images from the FF website StevieJ.

It seems people think the whole library is open to everyone even without owning but thats not the case. People think it due to the online library and the word free everywhere im guessing plus the fact theres not really any restrictions on using others work.

I see someone has finally noticed this. I am a constant user of Second Life myself, and have a small shop selling creations inworld actually... but it didn't take long for me to find a texture shop selling images from the FF website... and soon after, textures made with my very own filters.

In fact... guess how I found out about FF in the first place? I did a Google search for "free textures". Then I found out I could create my own filters to make my own totally unique textures... and then I saw the price of the software, and realized I could NOT afford it.

Then... I got sucked in by a promise of a way to get the software for free. I worked every waking hour during the time of my demo version (sometimes 16 hours a day or more), to learn the in and outs of how this software worked... and NOT ONCE have I ever used another person's work to create any part of my own. And at the end of my demo period... I had NOT ONE SINGLE HIGH USAGE RANKING.

It has been nearly 3 YEARS since I first came across FF, and I got an email to tell me I got my 3rd HU... and now it appears I may as well stick it in my ear, because my free version will become non-functional next time there is an upgrade.

MEANWHILE... IN SECOND LIFE...

I have found at least FIVE shops selling textures either made with my filters, or simply someone's copying and subsequent upload into Second Life of the images for the presets straight off the library here.

As to people's questions of whether these people are making any actual money, ie... some kind of significant amount in terms of real life US Dollars... uh... yeah... the aforementioned "Textures R Us" location in Second Life is huge... I dont know how anyone can even look through the entire shop there... and the owner of this shop, as far as I know, does not even create any of the textures for sale there herself... and yet claims to make $7,000 US DOLLARS PER WEEK selling textures in Second Life.

Yes.. most other merchants in Second Life do NOT make this sort of money (unless it relates to virtual sex... but that's another can of worms). However... the one thing EVERY OTHER CONTENT CREATOR within Second Life needs to create truly marketable products is... you guessed it... TEXTURES. Without textures, everything you make via building tools is rendered in a default 'plywood' texture... hardly attractive. Clothing is another subject and not really relevant to this discussion.

My point is: yes... for all intents and purposes, once submitted, filters are really NOT protected. And... here's the real kicker: these merchants within Second Life... and I'm sure some outside of Second Life, such as those mentioned at Renderosity... are CLAIMING COPYRIGHT to the output results of YOUR FILTERS.

(Incidentally... not long ago, there was a huge stink between Renderosity and a Second Life 'skin' maker... wherein Renderosity claimed this merchant in Second Life was pirating content from the Renderosity site... heh)

I don't know why I'm rambling here... but this has been eating at me for 3 years now... and I really don't care if these people are making pocket change or not... it's still MY CREATIONS that are bringing it to them... and I haven't been able to make a thin dime... because I COULD NOT EVEN USE MY OWN FILTERS all this time. All I wanted from the start was a way to more easily create textures for my own use in my 3D artwork... and instead I am now here rambling this tale.

All I ever wanted was a functional texture creation tool, for a price I could afford, which didn't expect me to pay upgrade fees every time I turned it on. What I got was 2 months of nerve-wracking burning of the midnight oil, and 3 years of watching everything I made get used by others while I couldn't even run the software anymore.... and finally the icing on the cake, seeing the results being sold within the virtual world I enjoy so much... taking just a little of that enjoyment right out of me.

In summary: yes... if considerably better copyright protection were offered, I might think of cashing in my 3 HUs and submitting filters once again... but until then, I guess I'll have to wait for the next 2 HUs... because the option for the 4th HU is useless to me... and without the 5th, my copy could become useless next time the software is upgraded... and I don't care to start this entire process over at the beginning.

Don't get me going..... LOL....

I would suggest requesting demo time extensions from FF towards getting the 5 extra HUs for lifetime updates of the program. FF has given up to two extra 30-day extensions in the past......for a total of 90 days with the demo.....

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StevieJ wrote: I would suggest requesting demo time extensions from FF towards getting the 5 extra HUs for lifetime updates of the program. FF has given up to two extra 30-day extensions in the past......for a total of 90 days with the demo.....

I am not sure who you are talking to here but capnsparrow says she came across FF 3 years ago and I think her demo may have expired since then. I bought FF when my 30 days trial period was up. Knowing I could have extended it to 90 days and that other people do makes me feel ripped off too.

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jffe wrote: Not to rain even more on your parade, but it's 3 HU's to get in, 5 more HU's for lifetime updates

No... it's just five HU's. Either that and you wasted three, or you are right and I got three for free. But I think it's just five and the getting filter forge for free page is just a bit confusing in their example.

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Kraellin wrote: pretty clear to me

I've read that. But I can imagine that people then think what Jffe thinks: that you first have to spend three HU's to get FF and then spend five more to get the lifetime upgrades. But that's not true. The example just shows that you lose the points once you choose a reward.

yeah, i see what you're seeing and i agree that that first part is ambiguous, but the example says to me that it's 3 + 5 no matter what. but, if one person has uncertainty about it, then there's sure to be more than one, so it shld probably be cleaned up and stated more precisely. that simple list is what's throwing everyone, i think.

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1 Reward Point = 20% discount coupon for any edition of Filter Forge 2 Reward Points = 50% discount coupon for any edition of Filter Forge 3 Reward Points = a free copy of Filter Forge Professional Edition 4 Reward Points = 5 coupons for a 30% discount each for any edition of Filter Forge 5 Reward Points = free lifetime upgrades to all future versions

but if you read it again, you'll notice that #5 states 'free lifetime upgrades'. it says NOTHING about getting the original version, the base. it ONLY says upgrades. so, to me, that says you are NOT getting the free copy plus upgrades for 5 HU's. i mean, how can you get upgrades if you dont have FF already? so, it's pretty clear to me that it's 3 + 5 = your copy + lifetime upgrades. i liken it to something like photoshop where you buy a full version and thereafter buy upgrades. but, if you're all still uncertain, why ask away at FF

Oh wait... I was wrong...
I was only thinking about the five points I spent, and completely forgot about the free copy I got for beta testing.

I'm sorry for being confusing (I need a vacation)... it is 3+5

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Reward Points: For example, suppose you had 3 High Usage Filters, which means 3 Reward Points, and you spent them to get a free copy of Filter Forge. Now you have zero points left, so, if you want to get another reward, say, free lifetime upgrades, you've got to earn 5 Reward Points more.

They just changed this.....so FF must be listening to our rantings after all.....

So, you're not crazy, sjeiti.....FF is just messing with your head.....

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capnsparrow wrote: All that matters to me is this: if I turn in my 3 HUs... can I continue to use my version of FF to create content for my own personal use, or will I, at some point, be forced into a mandatory cost upgrade?

----When the V2 upgrade happens, and assuming it does in fact cost to upgrade, you can choose to not upgrade and keep using V1. The only real downside is, no more new filters from the library, as any filters created with V2, will then not work in V1, but FF V1 itself will of course continue to function just fine.
----Surely you have used software that was upgraded to new versions, while you did not wish to continue paying for the upgrades, and the original version or level where you stopped buying the upgrades still works fine ? I have a buddy who runs Win98, and know several people using WinME, same kinda thing, the software doesn't care, it runs fine, you just can't do as much with it is all ha-ha.

jffe

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James wrote: The free deal should have been limited time

I have to disagree.....gotta have a demo trial period.....especially for a program such as this.....

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James wrote: it's still going strong with extensions on trials

Well, that's going on "under the radar" with very few knowing about it.....which I think should be changed so everyone knows about.....like by saying something about it on home page so everyone sees it. I think stating that extra demo trial will be given to those who are showing a good-faith effort to submit quality works would only help get more people involved and "spread the word" more about this program. It would bring in alot more people to try their hand at it.....who might otherwise think that 30 days is too short to get anywhere with it. I also think that it would improve filter submissions from new authors by giving them more time to learn the program and submit better filters with less time pressure.....

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Amethyst wrote: I think that is really unfair to the people who try it out and then buy it after the 30 days like I did. It leaves me feeling ripped off when there are people here who have had extensions and never paid for the application at all.

Yeah, another reason why they should be "open" to everyone about it.....because it has the potential to create bad PR from those who didn't know about it.....and end up feeling the same as you do now.....

The only reason why they might not want to be open about it is that they think that it might cut into sales.....like with people like yourself who ended up buying it after the 30 day demo.....but I think the benefits would still greatly outweigh any possible loss in sales.....

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Amethyst wrote: By the way, if I get 5 HUs do I have to rebuy the Pro version before I can get lifetime upgrades? I only have the standard edition because that is all I could afford

Good question.....I think that turning in five HUs will get you lifetime updates of the version that you have.....so you might want to upgrade to the pro version before doing it. I would ask FF to absolutely sure.....

I agree with you.....it's not fair to those (like you) who didn't know about being able to request demo extensions.....so I think FF should either be open about it with everyone or end it.....have to be "consistent" with everyone.....

In your case, I would suggest contacting FF.....explain how you would have approached this if you had known about requesting demo extensions....and ask them if they would upgrade you to lifetime updates of the pro version if you redeem just 5 more HUs. I can't speak for them.....but I think they might "accomodate" your situation.....especially given your ongoing involvement here.....

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and frankly, i dont think anything about the free program is seriously wrong. how many other companies offer their software for free for contributing? it's pretty much unprecedented in the software industry, other than beta testing. and notices are posted all over the forums about the two extensions. i know i've answered several people on this subject. so, let's be thankful that FF, inc. has been as kind and generous as they have been, yes?

About time someone got things straight here.