Our Private Filter Library

I was thinking about this for a while and wanted to get everyones thoughts on the subject.

Problem: No one wants to submit filters because we are afraid that some jerk is going to rip them off. We don't get any cool new filters, and we all lose out on some truly awesome filters

Solution? : We create our own blog or website where in order to use it you have to register as a member. Only people who have 5 or more HU can register. Once registered you can submit filters for others registered users to use. Unlike FF website though, these filters are copyrighted, meaning no editing of the filter (unless with concent to use it to guide the creation of another filter), absolutley no submitting to Filter Forges website, no direct resail of any renders. We would use the filters as they were intended to be used for, altering original photos or paintings for resail, or the texturing of 3d models for resail. But the filter and the rendered texture themselves will be copyrighted.


If I knew my filters were safe, and some jerk wasn't going to be selling the presets as their own work on various websites; I would dump about 100 high quality filters (maybe more like 20) into the website for others to download. I think others would be more willing to do so as well.

So I would be curious to hear your thoughts on the subject.

Thought about this myself.. I've been in a naive hope that FF would do something so we don't split up the community here, but we haven't even heard a word about it for a very long time, so I don't see it coming (and actually I'm personally more interested in FF using their time and resources on development, if that's what we have to choose between).

If I could share work with others, knowing that they'd use it with respect and not sell off default presets etc as their own unique creations, I'd definitely do so. Also it would be great with some option to sell filters and presets too.

Being a webdeveloper I can help out creating something like this, but I do not have the time to manage the overall project (I could help out writing an extension for whatever CMS / Forum core is going to be used).

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Redcap wrote: Only people who have 5 or more HU can register.

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Redcap wrote: Problem: No one wants to submit filters because we are afraid that some jerk is going to rip them off. We don't get any cool new filters, and we all lose out on some truly awesome filters

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James wrote: The quality of all the textures i make is about 100x better now and i still did not post my best stuff back then either. The point i am trying to make is i am sure that there is very skilled FF users that have maybe not ever submitted anything because they can't have licensing rights and were put off by all the re-selling, so a HU restriction might not be needed anyway.

Perhaps instead of a needing HUS as James points out that the good stuff was never posted...So perhaps a review of filters before the registering period...Much like the sites as shutterstock...

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Redcap wrote: Problem: No one wants to submit filters because we are afraid that some jerk is going to rip them off. We don't get any cool new filters, and we all lose out on some truly awesome filters

uhm, these statements arent completely true. i dont mind the resellers. i submitted to the library with my eyes open. and, we are still getting good, new filters. there have been two new EP's within the last week and several HU's and a couple that look good that just havent been in there long enough yet.

however, i do like the idea of an 'author's library/website'.

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Redcap wrote: Unlike FF website though, these filters are copyrighted, meaning no editing of the filter (unless with concent to use it to guide the creation of another filter), absolutley no submitting to Filter Forges website, no direct resail of any renders. We would use the filters as they were intended to be used for, altering original photos or paintings for resail, or the texturing of 3d models for resail. But the filter and the rendered texture themselves will be copyrighted

and there are several statements in here that arent quite right or that i dont like. first, your filters in the library ARE copyrighted by you. you still hold the copyrights. read the author's eula!

i dont want filters i cant edit! this is one of the pluses of the library. even if i'm not resubmitting a filter as my own, i may still wish to tweak it and use my tweaked version any way i wish and i'm not gonna go asking for permission.

no direct resale of textures and renders? even if they are on my own site? nope. dont like that either. i can understand others not wanting their textures sold by others with no credit given, but if you're going to put your creation in the hands of another creator...

intended to be used for by whom? i intended mine to be used by anyone for any purpose.

and that last line isnt going to work either. who's going to take your filter and then go to you for permission every time they produce a work? it's just not practical.

If what you want to do is create an author's club to talk and swap filters, there's no mystery in that. Just do it. Create a pool and swap your filters. Limit distribution to just the members and forget about restrictions beyond that.

If you're interested in creating cash fr om your work then there are two roads to go down. Each with its advantages and disadvantages. You can sell renderings (if you can get them accepted) or you can sell filters. In each case, the biggest problem is getting exposure.

Selling renderings on my own sites, has not been anything to write home about. We just don't get enough traffic which comes down to a lack of SEO and size of library. Selling renderings at a really successful site like ShutterStock is the easiest path to take. Our primary success came from selling collections. There the success rested on a very good telemarketer we had in our employ. When the economy tanked, he hung on as long as he could but his production hit bottom and he moved on to greener pastures.

At ShutterStock, our content is about 20% rendered tiles and 80% vector illustrations. So far our sales have been about 30% to 35% tiles though, indicating a strong demand for such items. What you may want to know, however, is that of the tiles that sell, about 75% of them are photographic items. Random bombings of pistachio nuts or rubies and diamonds and hand composed tiles such as
natural camouflage. The sale of a procedural tile is the exception ... not the rule.

Selling filters would be an exercise in patience and would pretty much be lim ited to procedural tiles since bombing of multiple images, defining repeating patterns and blend synthesis are all standard features of the competitor's application ... so no one would likely pay for such an FF filter if it could even be created. Then you hit into the reality of illegal redistribution. Unless you come up with some procedure to secure the filter from being redistributed, you're going to really get upset. Put a filter out there for sale and, for every one sold, a hundred will be traded around by the pirates.

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Sphinx. wrote: Thought about this myself.. I've been in a naive hope that FF would do something so we don't split up the community here, but we haven't even heard a word about it for a very long time, so I don't see it coming (and actually I'm personally more interested in FF using their time and resources on development, if that's what we have to choose between).

We're discussing this, but we haven't yet come to a definite conclusion -- this is a big and complicated issue.

The idea of a '3rd-party' filter-sharing community is perfectly fine with us -- the authors are copyright holders, and they're free to decide what to do with their creations, assuming that the filters aren't submitted to the Filter Library and therefore the authors aren't bound by the Upload License.

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Vladimir Golovin wrote: We're discussing this, but we haven't yet come to a definite conclusion -- this is a big and complicated issue.

Thank you for responding on the matter. I feared you dropped that issue completely. I will not reiterate all the points and ideas ppl in here presented regarding this, but if you need input, let us know

This sounds like a great idea. I think the project should include sculpting packages also. I can't imagine making textures without photoshop, filter forge, google images, and mudbox. I will try to contribute but I am under a lot of pressure to complete other projects. Plus I know zero about web things or eula issues.

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Vladimir Golovin wrote: We're discussing this

I had given up on you. Good luck.

The thing is, this forum would be the best place - imo. If ff would explicitly define procedural textures as dynamic works of art (in the words of sphinx.) rather than tools, and elevate contributors (philosophically) to the central role they occupy in reality. Users, imo, are primarily a result of contributors, not ff, its programmers or marketers. In this context, ff could begin making incremental changes to the forum, rather than trying to come up with a comprehensive solution to a problem that has stymied the rest of the art industry, and this stagnation might be mitigated.
It would be nice if ff could hire sphinx., or someone at his level, along with a couple of professional administrators (one for texture and one for photo), to coordinate and expand the entire ff community.

I concure... Seems like FF isn't going to take the reins on something like this and use it to their advantage....so I think authors should pull together to make $$$ from their filterwork. I do think that this will conflict with FF because authors won't submit works to them and undercut themselves....

Sign Guy more or less told you (Stevie) and anyone reading this (or threads like it) and it is exactly what I experienced after wasting 12-18 months trying to sell seamless tiles online. There is very little if anything from the massive FF library that is actually selling for any $ out there, and the odds that any of us have more than a handful that even compete with the top FF filters, is slim. Bottom line, the filters aren't really worth much if anything. The only reason they are/were worth anything to FF, is as an incentive for people to buy the program, but on their own, they have no real dollar/euro/pund/yen/etc. value. Go ahead, try to sell some tiles you've rendered from FF with your top secret/hidden/special filters. It's not gonna happen, it's a fantasy, give it up, move on, etc.

jffe

i dont think texture filters are the ones that would sell. and that's based on my own very limited experience, but also on fred's rather considerable experience. i think you'd have much better success with your effect/art filters, steve. those are the ones of yours that i use.

I don't really even want to sell my filters, I would just like a place were we could limit who has access and do a high quality filter swap of sorts. You can use my 50 high quality filters in commercial ventures if I can use your 50 high quality filters. Also I promise not to take credit from or ripp off your filter structure, or sell direct texture renders. Something along those lines.

That way I win because I get more tools to use in my artistic ventures, and you win because so do you. But we are both professional enough that you won't see your filter being sold with me taking the credit of your hard work.

Just had an additional thought, it would be cool if filter forge added a lock mode to filters, so others couldn't alter, or see their makeup.

hehe, i remember. and i remember giving you a hard time about it. i still wouldnt want to see such in the main library but if we had stand-alone filters or if this offshore thing happens, then i could easily see it.

If you're really keen for people to not modify your textures then you could obfuscate them by moving all the nodes into the same position. It would make it difficult enough for people to rearrange that they'd probably not bother.

I'm not trying to encourage this, though, it's just something that you could do. I think it's fairly selfish trying to get the reward points and visibility without paying the very small cost of licensing your work for others to use.

I'm not worried about you good people....it's the ones who BS their way in under a hidden agenda....already fallen victim and seen plenty of that....so yes, I'm weary of it....

I didn't agree with it at first, but I think you, jffe, have a good idea with locked filters....not limitting renders to just presets, but access to filter construction being locked out....

....and like I said, some kind of filter encryption to make them proprietary to individual liscences. The extra code would be negligable and shouldn't affect anything at all. This is something I think FF would have to do in order to get into pay/pro filters anyway....otherwise, the value of everything there would quickly die as soon as anything hit the shelves....

Red, I know what you are saying....kind of a private workshop where we share ideas/filterwork and learn fr om each other....it's a good idea, but I think there has to be added incentive for more advanced authors to participate....like it wouldn't be worth it for an author to share a cutting-edge idea and get nothing in return for it....as in filters they have no use for or construction ideas that they already know how to do. That is why I think some kind of $$$ incentive would help break down those walls towards the desired participation....

Again, I think authors should get together and pick up wh ere FF leaves off.....there is definitely $$$ to made here....

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Uh .. this idea about locking/obscuring/closing filters sounds awful to me; I thought we started out this discussion because we wanted to ensure proper copyright and attribution handling. It's fine with me that we also implement a simple shopping system, but I can't support something that essentially limits the creative possibilities..

Regarding the shopping part: I propose some sort of centralized credits system (like seen on many stock image hosting sites, like e.g. iStockPhoto). This allows sellers/authors to use their earned credits directly on other filters/projects, without additional transfer fees.

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martadella wrote: I am sure I would pay for an unique filter. If this site/blog is going only to be available for best filter creators to exchange some ideas ..then this sure is going to split this community on the best creators and those who are not the best filter creators but perhaps only users of filters like I am. And not every user is a person who is selling presets somewhere. Some of use are more creative and do a lot more using this wonderful gallery then only render some presents and selling somewhere. If you idea it would be something like a shop with filters when other can buy good filter and then use it ( with CU or PU licences) then this would be for sure a good motivation for the best filter creators to show their best creations and make money with it.

Exactly....it's all about incentives....and $$$ is by far the best one because everyone needs it. If there was some kind of online filter store, author competition would skyrocket....and the store would become loaded with top-quality, cutting-edge works....well beyond what is currently found in the FF library. I initially thought that this would hurt FF....but I now actually think it would help FF.....because customers would have to buy FF first in order to make use of any filters from an independent online store....just like how it works with third-party packages for Adobe programs....

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Sphinx. wrote: Regarding the shopping part: I propose some sort of centralized credits system (like seen on many stock image hosting sites, like e.g. iStockPhoto). This allows sellers/authors to use their earned credits directly on other filters/projects, without additional transfer fees.

Yeah, I think a credit system could be taken advantage of by both FF and an independent site....with credits buying improvements to individual author storefronts....kinda like Second Life....

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ronviers wrote: I like the idea of having a storefront wh ere I could sell filters and filter related services. Here are some services I would like to be able to sell: New filter on request Filter mods – my filters, or other’s with permission Mesh retopology – I can target the retopo for deformation and redistribute mesh density for efficient sculpting. UV layout – I actually enjoy doing uv layout. Hand painted surface maps – secondary detail for displacement and tertiary for bump/diffuse etc. Character setup – rigging and skinning – fbx or maya Low poly cage creation Eventually mental ray related services, but I'm not able to do that yet

Exactly the way I've been thinking about it....something that allows authors offer related work, services, art, etc....beyond just filters....

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I am sure there are many people who would pay for filters. I personally do not like the credits systems on photostock and fotolia. I would prefer to pay $$ and have my filter then buy some credits. I like the way it works on DAZ shop. You can buy any adds for money and use it also for CU but of course you can not sell the adds itself. I would like this could work the same- I can buy a filter e.g a water filter that I use to render some elements for my graphic and I can sell these elements. I am potential customers and for sure there are many of them. I do not see nothing wrong in this idea. When you got Adobe Photoshop you also have to buy some CU layers styles or brushes. Or course there are also many offered for free. I would not like that after opening a store the best filters will disappear from open library and will be available only in the store.

I see why you guys want a place to exchange "pro" filters, but as a new user, I think it would hurt simpletons like me.
I myself only made 1 filter so far, and I don't see it going HU anytime soon... It's not really finished yet, but I just don't know how to make it work the way I want. Scripting is totaly beyond me, and I hardly know any of the components in FF.
What I'm trying to say is, people like me DEPEND on the pro users who know what they are doing.
I read here that some of you have been burnt by people seeling your filters. How is that possible?
Also, it pains me to see so many awsome looking filters popping up in the forum, and never being released to the library. I have seen threads of people "showing off" all kinds of filters they made, which look amazing, and they talk about how they used it for some project or another, but never release the filter. For someone like me, who can't figure the simplest filter out, it's devastating.
I feel like I just baught this amazing luxurius new business jet, but now i need a pilot willing to take me where I need to go, or learn how to fly the plane by mail...
The "Gentlemen club" is a great idea, only if users like me, who don't intend on using the filters for any commerical purpose, can join. Then the problem becomes, how do you kow who is an honest joe and who is there to leech off other people's hard work...