Re-Downloading Filters ?

How do I re-download a filter that I have already downloaded using the internal FF filter downloading method ? I ask because it has them grayed out and not selectable currently. And speaking of that, it would be nice if FF would fix the problem with just clicking on the filter to open it (on it's page) using IE like I asked about a week or two ago, then I wouldn't have to use this method, and have yet another problem. And yeah, I sound annoyed, because not only have I not received a solution to this webpage click-to-download problem, it's not the first time it's refused to work, and I haven't changed anything, still using IE like 98% of the rest of the world. Let me know what's up with my IE problems, and a solution please, I don't want to use the internal library that often as it is very slow and cumbersome and the search has never even once worked for me.

jffe

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onyXMaster wrote: Errm... why would you like to re-download a filter? It got damaged, deleted or so?

----Ya know, that doesn't begin to help at all, you've answered none of the questions posed. I'm really tired of the lackluster "support" when we have technical issues or questions. If I had paid the $299 for this program, it would be getting slammed big time on photoshop forums around online. I realize I have a free copy, but if I can't use it for anything, or it's a big hassle most of the time, then why bother ya know. And the sad part is, the program itself runs really well, there are just all these little unknown issues and technical things that no one seems to want to talk about or deal with. (And it's not just me, I see lots of questions come and go, and most of them just get some vague non-answer thrown at them, no reply at all, or more questions posed to the person who asked the question, like this.)

1) How do I re-download a filter, or much better, how can I open/download a filter from it's webpage using Internet Explorer ? I have gotten that to work a few times in the past, but inevitabley it stops working the next day and 3 months later it's still not working. If it's some kind of cookie problem, like Norton erases it, well, then ya'll ought to find a way around that, as IE and Norton are so commonly used as to be expected.

2) Why are files 3X or more in size when rendered from the FF stand alone, than when rendered and saved at Photoshop's highest setting ?? This is a must-know question, why the difference, and not just "oh well, the FF internal blah blah is much fancier than the photoshop render thinger that only reduplisizes partials of the combinational extrapolator". Why is the file 3X+ bigger, in simple day-to-day terms ?

3) When using the Size, pixels control, is it possible to use that to achieve results that can't be gotten with using the controls above, or is it just the same as scaling them down ?

----Answering/dealing with those 3 things would be a good way to start this coming week. And might actually shut me up for a week or so. Can we at least take care of these couple of things and get some answers here ? And to reply to your question, because of FF's inherently odd "filing" system for filters, I have found it quicker and easier to just keep filters I am using frequently and in the middle of making/modifying, in their own folders, that I cut & paste and move in and out of the FF "My Filters" area nearly constantly. And yes, of course some get lost or at least misplaced. So would I rather spend 15-20 minutes looking for a filter I downloaded, or just jump on the FF page and grab the 35kb file there (since unlike from within FF, the search function on the website actually workd), in about 3-4 mnutes ? Of course it would be easier for me to just grab the filter again, and at 35kb, I could do that 100,000 times before it would begin to dent the monthly bandwidth etc. I can't imagine not being "allowed" to redownload a filter, certainly it's just a minor website design issue that FF could fix in 30 minutes some afternoon, and then it would just never need to be complained about by anyone ever again eh.

jffe

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onyXMaster wrote: If Filter Forge does not download a filter, we might have a problem there. A problem that could probably only be solved if you help us (instead of telling us that you're not going to try another browser). If you're not willing to help us track this problem down -- well, we might fix it in the future, but on the other hand -- we might not. Please take note that modifying Filter Forge folders except the My Filters and My Environments ones is completely unsupported.

----The My Filters folder is the only one I cut & paste and move around. I have deleted filters from the other internal FF categories before, and I want to get them again, but it will not allow me to do that internally. And the ongoing on-again off-again website problem won't allow me to use the website *shortcut* to redownload them (or download to begin with for that matter). I don't know what I can do to "help" you in this matter, I use IE (by far and away and back again and then further away the most used browser of them all) and it just doesn't work, when I click on an open-the-filter-in-FF button on the FF webpages it just opens FF to the last filter I was working on, and the filter I wanted did not get downloaded and filed in it's own category or whatever it would maybe normally do in addition to opening when FF opens. I was told a while back it was a cookies problem, and I was able to empty my cookies (a HUGE hassle in and of itself, as I do not enjoy trying to remember multiple names/passwords for sites I frequent, and cookies save me lots of time and headaches there) and get the webpage buttons to work for a week or three, but then they quit, the cookies trick didn't make it work again, and it hasn't worked in several months now. Meanwhile, I have made no system changes what-so-ever having to do with IE or my internet connections, except to add FF as a "safe" site in my IE options.

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onyXMaster wrote: 2) Short answer: because Filter Forge's JPEG saver is inferior in terms of size optimization to the Adobe Photoshop one. Long answer: Filter Forge was not intended to be a standalone web publishing companion application or a Photoshop/ImageReady replacement, so the file size might be larger than a Photoshop one. Although, I would be very surprised that there would be a 3X size difference,

----In larger cases, the difference can be as much as 4 1/2 times or more in difference. If the issue is just that Photoshop has a better compression code, then that seems like a reasonable explanation. One finally inquiry about this one and I'll consider it completely answered. Are the FF renders of technically better/higher quality then ? And if so, by what % approximately ?

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onyXMaster wrote: Also, if you're after image quality and precision, rendering at the desired size is a lot better than scaling.

----That is important to know, so I'll keep that in mind. I was just curious about the scaling, as I seemed to be getting some interesting results that I had not been able to get just by tweaking the controls or hitting random, but perhaps I had just not struck upon the correct numbers to get those results that way. So, to clarify, and so that I can feel like I understand this even better, from what you were saying, I'm thinking that it would have more of an effect on shapes/textures (for instance one of angelboi's videogame floor/wall type textures), as opposed to say a filter that changes the colors of your picture or adds a grid over it or something ? Or does it not matter so much there, as it does what individual components make up the filter, as the "distance based" ones are being affected as you (or someone) told me in a previous thread about this ?

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onyXMaster wrote: Your other inquires are good ones which got our attention, but we won't get far answering them with the "I'm not a techie and I don't need that tech crap but make it work now!" attitude.

----Well, it's a fine line between a technical answer that may be "correct", and a useful answer, that might help a person get on with what they trying to do, and given the choice, I'll always take the 2nd kind first and worry about understanding something that I can't control (internal technical details of a program I didn't write) later if ever. No offense there, it's just that I really do not care how it happens, I just want to know what has happened, why something has happened, or how to make something happen or stop happening, couldn't care less how, and if it can't be done, then a quick explanation as to why, should suffice. The *how* question, is just not one for the user when it comes to solving problems, the how, is for the people that make the tools, and I don't envy you there, as I know that whatever goes on inside FF is way more complicated than what I am trying to do with it, just saying.

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onyXMaster wrote: Could you please be so kind to help us make Filter Forge better? If yes -- please help us by providing required information while maintaining mutual respect. If no -- well, I'm sorry for that and cannot predict when you will get the fix for the aforementioned problems and the information you asked for.

----Well, I can try to be more respectful, but I would also appreciate the respect of more timely answers to questions. Some of these questions have gone unanswered for weeks now. I got a little upset when I see some other questions being answered, and some of mine just kind of slowly fade down the list and seem to be echoing off in space. Maybe there needs to be a daily check on this bugs & problems forum, just to make sure that people know it's being looked into. Until a problem is solved, an FF person should at least post once a day in any open threads, and update them on the situation. Alternatively, it could be done via email, but to just keep on things until they are put behind us all. Just an idea.

----If any more information is required about my IE settings, let me know and I can post that. Other than that, if you can answer about the other 2 things above, I will consider these questions well on their way to be answered, if not done and over. Thanks.

jffe

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StevieJ wrote: jffe, are you keeping filter copies inside of the FF folder???

----No. If I make changes to something, then it is renamed and jumps to the "My Filters" folder, but that is not the moving around that onyx was asking about.

jffe

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onyXMaster wrote: Does Filter Forge do nothing on startup with every filter you try to download or some filters "come through"?

----For the last 3 months give or take, when I click on a download/open button on the FF site, on a filter page (any filter), it opens up FF, to the last filter I was using when I closed it. That's it, that's all it does.

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onyXMaster wrote: I really want an example of such (4.5 times) difference. Could you please attach a filter (and an image if it's needed by the filter, or output dimensions if it isn't)?

----They were large, like 25megs or more. I was doing some bigger renders, like 3600 X 3600 or so. The same ones using FF inside Photoshop (an ancient version, 5.1 or so) were only about 4 1/2 megs, saved at the highest *save as* .jpg quality that Photoshop allowed for back in 2000 or whenever that version is from ha-ha. Can I upload a 25meg and a 4-5meg graphic render to the FF site or ? I don't want to join insta-send or anything, if I can't upload it here, can I email it with Hotmail ?

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onyXMaster wrote: the most ones affected are Surface Root/Refraction with Image or Selection component attached

----What does that mean, "Surface Root" specifically, but that whole line if it can be explained diferently please.

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onyXMaster wrote: If I recall correctly (can be utterly, completely wrong though), forum is not an official support channel,

----That could be the case, it is just confusing when FF affiliates like yourself, do come along and reply to some questions and not others sometimes. Perhaps Vlad should lay down the law, and tell me and whiny answer seekers like me, to email it in, or don't expect a reply, then we'll just know once and for all ha-ha.

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onyXMaster wrote: 4. Do not hesitate to ask through email/contact form if you _really_ want to know something _fast_.

----Alright, duly noted. And thanks for pointing out that that is perhaps a better way to get a proper/fast response.

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onyXMaster wrote: To conclude: 1. Thank you for asking "hard" questions 2. There will be answers for them. 3. Just not as fast as you might like to.

----Ha-ha, alright well, I dunno if they are "hard" questions, they are just a bit on the technical side, but they are must-know things for the most part. I do check the wiki and/or do a forum search before I start asking wildly, usually, but it has not quite given me the answers I need, or at least not in an understandable way.
----If I have something/some question that I feel is more specific to just what I am trying to use FF for, then I'll probably go ahead and send it in via email and not trouble the rest of the world here, but when it's stuff I think everyone who is doing mid-level stuff (like I'd like to think I am ha-ha) with FF should know, then I'm probably gonna ask here, so everyone can check it out and maybe learn something.

jffe

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jffe wrote: it is just confusing when FF affiliates like yourself, do come along and reply to some questions and not others sometimes. Perhaps Vlad should lay down the law

This has been already mentioned:

if you want a guaranteed answer, please use the contact form -- we can't promise that we reply all questions here on the forums.

Ahimsa, click the link "Filter Forge Is Already Installed" on the error page and try to download the filter again.

OK, let's deal with the questions one by one:

1. How to re-download filters?

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jffe wrote: ----For the last 3 months give or take, when I click on a download/open button on the FF site, on a filter page (any filter), it opens up FF, to the last filter I was using when I closed it. That's it, that's all it does.

This is a bug. We already investigated it and fixed some stuff on the web site. The bug first appeared here: http://www.filterforge.com/forum/read...8&TID=2238 . Based this thread, we assumed that the problem is fixed. Since you say that the problem still persists, we'll look into it again.


2. Why JPGs saved by FF are larger than same JPGs saved by Photoshop?

I've noticed that Photoshop's JPGs are smaller and better than those of competing apps long before we started working on FF. If memory serves, I compared JPGs in Corel PhotoPaint and Photoshop and found the Photoshop ones to be much better.

As for how they do it, I have no information. It is possible that they pre-process the image before feeding it into the JPEG codec. Also, their quality slider seems to be 'truncated' -- if you try to save a JPG with the lowest possible quality from Photoshop and then do the same from Corel, you'll find that the Corel one is much worse. Most likely this is because Corel uses an 'honest' zero, while Photoshop starts its quality scale at 25% or so.


3. When using the Size, pixels control, is it possible to use that to achieve results that can't be gotten with using the controls above?

Yes. 'Size' affects all components, regardless of their controls, so even when a component has no means to scale itself, 'Size' will scale it. For example, the Gradients > Spectrum component has a parameter affecting its 'scale', but it is discrete (2x, 3x, 4x repetition etc). Regardless of this, 'Size' will adjust the scale smoothly.

I strongly recommend that you read the help article on Size. Size was one of the most difficult topics in the entire help, so please read it carefully:

http://www.filterforge.com/more/help/.../Size.html

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jffe wrote: One finally inquiry about this one and I'll consider it completely answered. Are the FF renders of technically better/higher quality then ? And if so, by what % approximately ?

Umm. I'm not sure I understand the question, so I'll have to 'throw a non-answer' at you.

What exactly do you mean under FF renders? Original image before saving? Or the saved image that went through color space conversion and compression?

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Top wrote: jffe, could you please give us some details: 1. How much time passes between the click on the "Open in Filter Forge" button in IE and the moment when FF runs and shows the list of filters? 2. What exactly happens after you click the "Open in Filter Forge" button when FF is already running? Do you see the "Connecting to the server..." message?

----1 : Only about 6 or 7 seconds, the same amount of time as if I had double clicked on the FF icon on my desktop to open it.
----2 : I hadn't tried that before. Having just done it, it gives me the "Cannot run Filter Forge - the program is already running." pop-up message. I do not see the "Connecting to the server..." message unless I open FF and click on "Download More Filters", then go use the internal library method.

jffe

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onyXMaster wrote: Mail me the images along with filter at onyxmast3r@hotmail.com (better that way if you're sending through hotmail), preferably as separate letters (so there won't be one 100Mb hunk of mail on my mailbox)

----Alright, I re-rendered example files, and sent all 3, it took me nearly 2 hours this morning, so please do check into the 2 different issues I present in my emails and let me know what you can determine about the differences I have shown. Thanks.

jffe

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onyXMaster wrote: Conclusion: I will ask Vlad to adjust the defaults to the quality of 98 and the "Full-precision color encoding" to off to prevent this problem in the future.

----So that will then make the filesizes about what the highest setting Photoshops are then I take it ?
----I know I'm supposed to email ya, but since you are replying here so far, any word on the 3rd sample I sent you, the color corrected Photoshop one ?

jffe

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jffe wrote: So that will then make the filesizes about what the highest setting Photoshops are then I take it ?

Not necessarily. We have no idea what value Photoshop uses as the top limit of its JPEG quality. It is possible to do a series of experiments and figure out how the Photoshop's JPEG quality range maps onto the 'true', unclamped JPEG quality range, but I see no point in doing this. It would be a lot easier to simply use FF as a plugin and save JPEGs from Photoshop.

jffe,

looks like file associations are broken.

Please run Registry Editor (Start > Run, then type "regedit" and click OK) and see what you have in

HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\FilterForge.Command\shell\open\command

The (Default) value should be something like

"C:\Program Files\Filter Forge\Bin\Filter Forge.exe" "%1"

Please copy what you have in the "Data" column and send it to us -- either post here or send via the contact form.

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Vladimir Golovin wrote: It would be a lot easier to simply use FF as a plugin and save JPEGs from Photoshop.

----Aha ! We agree on something then. I just wanted to know why the big filesize difference was happening, and what the approx quality difference was, and it sounds like both questions have been answered. I'll just plan on doing final renders/saves inside Photoshop then and not worry about it.

jffe

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Top wrote: Please copy what you have in the "Data" column and send it to us -- either post here or send via the contact form.

"C:\Program Files\Filter Forge\Bin\Filter Forge.exe" "%1"

jffe

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Top wrote: We've done some changes on the server side. Please retry to open any filter via "Open in Filter Forge" from IE (first with Filter Forge running, then with Filter Forge closed).

----If FF is already open, I get that "Can't open, FF already running" error, and if it's not open, then it opens to the last filter I used.

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Top wrote: Also, please try to open the following URL and report the results: http://www.filterforge.com/upload/filter_lib/697.ffcmd (also with Filter Forge running and with Filter Forge closed)

----Same result as above on both counts.

jffe

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Top wrote: Tell us what happens in both cases.

----The first time I clicked on it after downloading it, it prompted FF to go into Download More Filters mode, but after the first time, it just opened FF to the last filter I had used. When FF is already running and I click on it, it opes to where it would open if I had clicked Download More Filters, but it just *jumps* to that section in my filter library, it does not open up the Download More Filters area.

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Top wrote: please describe the way you connect to the Internet (ADSL, xDSL, LAN, etc.), and whether you use any proxy servers (in IE settings or elsewhere) or firewalls.

----Dsl (256k I think), no proxy that I am aware of, and only the Windows XP built in firewall.

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Top wrote: Please copy the request and the response and post them here

GET /bitrix/templates/homepage/images/leftgreybkg.gif HTTP/1.1
Accept: */*
Referer: http://www.filterforge.com/filters/698.html
Accept-Language: en-us
Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate
User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727)
Host: www.filterforge.com
Connection: Keep-Alive
Cookie: BITRIX_SM_GUEST_ID=488276; BITRIX_SM_LAST_VISIT=18.09.2007+13%3A19%3A13; BITRIX_SM_LAST_ADV=15_Y; BITRIX_SM_LOGIN=jffe; BITRIX_SM_UIDH=4e5842a2b880be0cdafcce95dcefb122; filterforge_ffwiki_UserID=39; filterforge_ffwiki_Token=39b74e77cde825955d7a8a1be1fcac41; filterforge_ffwiki_UserName=Jffe; filterforge_ffwiki_LoggedOut=20070918174953; PHPSESSID=1f5b76e78041f91b9e8e76cfc1cb7b4c

GET /filters/698.ffcmd HTTP/1.1
Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, application/x-shockwave-flash, */*
Referer: http://www.filterforge.com/filters/698.html
Accept-Language: en-us
Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate
User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727)
Host: www.filterforge.com
Connection: Keep-Alive
Cookie: FILTER_FORGE_PROGRAM_EXPIRES=3650; FILTERS_TAB_INDEX=3; BITRIX_SM_GUEST_ID=488276; BITRIX_SM_LAST_VISIT=18.09.2007+13%3A19%3A13; BITRIX_SM_LAST_ADV=15_Y; BITRIX_SM_LOGIN=jffe; BITRIX_SM_UIDH=4e5842a2b880be0cdafcce95dcefb122; filterforge_ffwiki_UserID=39; filterforge_ffwiki_Token=39b74e77cde825955d7a8a1be1fcac41; filterforge_ffwiki_UserName=Jffe; filterforge_ffwiki_LoggedOut=20070918174953; PHPSESSID=1f5b76e78041f91b9e8e76cfc1cb7b4c

GET /bitrix/templates/homepage/images/leftgreybkg.gif HTTP/1.1
Accept: */*
Referer: http://www.filterforge.com/filters/698.html
Accept-Language: en-us
Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate
User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727)
Host: www.filterforge.com
Connection: Keep-Alive
Cookie: BITRIX_SM_GUEST_ID=488276; BITRIX_SM_LAST_VISIT=18.09.2007+13%3A19%3A13; BITRIX_SM_LAST_ADV=15_Y; BITRIX_SM_LOGIN=jffe; BITRIX_SM_UIDH=4e5842a2b880be0cdafcce95dcefb122; filterforge_ffwiki_UserID=39; filterforge_ffwiki_Token=39b74e77cde825955d7a8a1be1fcac41; filterforge_ffwiki_UserName=Jffe; filterforge_ffwiki_LoggedOut=20070918174953; PHPSESSID=1f5b76e78041f91b9e8e76cfc1cb7b4c

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Top wrote: it should be Runny Water Abstract by CFandM. When you double-click the 697.ffcmd file, Filter Forge should open on this filter. Please specify the name of the filter which opens in your cases.

----O.k., it opened to that one, when I double clicked on 697.ffcmd from FF not being on.

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Top wrote: The response is in the bottom right window and starts with HTTP/1.1 200 OK (see my post above).

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:03:42 GMT
Server: Apache
Expires: Mon, 26 Jul 1997 05:00:00 GMT
Last-Modified: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:03:42 GMT
Cache-Control:
Pragma: no-cache
Content-Length: 133
Keep-Alive: timeout=5, max=100
Connection: Keep-Alive
Content-Type: application/ffcmd

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><FilterForgeCommands><OpenFilters><Filter family_id="698"/></OpenFilters></FilterForgeCommands>/»÷+¯ÀC<pÆ
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133 bytes (133 bytes)

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><FilterForgeCommands><OpenFilters><Filter family_id="879"/></OpenFilters></FilterForgeCommands>

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Top wrote:7. Make sure FF is closed and double-click the 879.ffcmd file. Which filter opens?

----Diamond Plate.

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Top wrote: 8. Now run FF and double-click the 879.ffcmd file. Which filter opens now?

----Diamond Plate.