Selling Filters

Due to having some of my textures being sold in Second Life I have been making texture packs of my textures and offering them for free on the shareCG website. One texture pack I have recently created is from a filter I have not released yet. Someone has approached me suggesting I sell this filter. It got me thinking if anyone already sells the filters they make and with the vast library of free filters already on this site would there be any real demand for commercial filters? Obviously I am not talking about specific filters created for just one client but rather more general filters. I cannot see many people buying a filter but what do you think?

Yes, I can see there are lots of problems with selling filters. I have gotten a lot of interest for the texture packs made with my own filters that I have offered for free but selling them is a whole new kettle of fish. Would people be so keen to buy them? I have never sold textures so I have no idea what sort of demand there is for texture packs.

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James wrote: But a 3rd party site might do it, the thing is it would probably only be dedicated FF users interested in buying no doubt. It could work though maybe but most likely people in general would be more interested in pre-rendered images. It could go either way really but it's definitely an interesting idea/topic.

Well, is selling texture packs not fraught with the same sort of problems with people complaining that someone is selling textures which resemble their filter too closely, the pack appearing on warez sites, etc?

I guess I need convincing there is a commercial side in this and so far I am not convinced.

Good points, Steve and something that even bugs the bigger software houses.

We are in the business of selling large, ready-to-use renderings (3,600 x 3,600 pixels) to the wide format print, vehicle wrap, banners and sign makers. Until the economic downturn, high resolution seamless tiles was the best product type we have experienced in more than ten years. Even with the bad economy, seamless tiles currently outsells all other forms of art we publish combined.

We publish collections on DVD and we publish through our websites where we license individual downloads. We will be opening a new website shortly that will use a subscription business model and will be marketed it in a variety of ways including website banner ads, an affiliate program, and our telephone sales team. This new site will be focused on seamless tiles and is designed to show them in better ways than any existing sites we know of show them. It will also include video tutorials on their use and a forum dedicated to supporting and promoting seamless tiles.

We create much of our own content using Filter Forge, Genetica, ImageSynth, Alien Skin, Photoshop and other applications and techniques. A percentage of our content is from the Filter Forge free library although we do not publish unmodified presets.

We offer three different licensing opportunities to filter authors:

1. We will license your unpublished filters on a non-exclusive basis for a one time fee if we like them. You agree to withhold the filter from the Filter Forge library but are otherwise free to license it to others and use it as you see fit.

2. We will license your unpublished filters on a non-exclusive basis and use them for renderings and then pay you a small royalty periodically on sales of renderings. You agree to withhold the filters from the Filter Forge library but are otherwise free to license it to others and use it as you see fit.

3. We will license your renderings made to our specifications on a non-exclusive basis and then pay you a significant royalty periodically on sales of renderings.

Offer #3 has thus far been entered into with three filter authors here and should start bearing fruit later this year.

For a better explanation of what we offer, click this link. If you're interested ... get in touch.

Does it actually sell .ffxml then or just renders in common image formats? Im just wondering because theres already lot's of stock sites selling textures online.

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James wrote: The way people can make a lot of money from selling textures is with a large community site like you see with the Second Life ones because they always have a source of traffic/userbase.

Exactly.....which is why I've been suggesting that FF get into it as well.....use it as part of an advanced incentive program to draw in new authors and keep them producing here.....while justifying the "proposed" new EULA restriction on straight texture results and giving authors the means to take advantage of having "tangible" copyrights on them.....which would certainly turn this place into a bustling texture mecca and expotentially increase sales of this program.....

I mean, call me crazy.....but what better place to do something like this than at FF.....which offers one of the top programs that creates textures???

Since it doesn't look like FF is interested or has the resources to pursue anything like this.....the next best ways to make money from them is to keep your filter creations to yourself and sell texture packs from them at either Second life or with Fred.....

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Amethyst wrote: I am coming round to your way of thinking, Steve!

I hope that's not a bad thing, eh??? LOL.... I'm just trying to be logical and realistic about it.....


It's all kinda like a "no-brainer" to me......what better place would there be to set up a successful texture pack shopping mall than at either FF or Genetica???


Personally, I'd like to see FF take a page out of Second Life's handbook and do something like that here.....which would make it entising and fun.....

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Amethyst wrote: maybe they see it as competing with their customers on their part.

I think they are all competitors with FF in one way or another....and I can't see how competing and taking business away from them would hurt FF in any way....in fact, I think it would only make FF much more successful.....

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James wrote: Yeah, like you say if FF etc actually did it not only does it benifit them and users but it also makes people more aware of how all the stock/merchant sites are making the textures. So it would promote FF as a app as well as giving them money from texture sales.

So true.....it would totally "diffuse" the texture resellers, allow authors to protect themselves with a simple DCMA email, and bring most of the money (that is exchanging hands out there over straight FF texture results) back here to benefit both authors and FF.....

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Amethyst wrote: They would still not necessarily want to render textures themselves. From my knowledge of businesses, if their time is more profitable elsewhere then that is where they will spend their time even if it means they have to pay someone to do something they could quite easily do themselves. As Sign Guy says:

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Sign Guy wrote: Our average time per render on a quad core system is between 30 and 45 minutes ... which is why we find a market for ready to use tiles. Most folks in the business of designing for huge image areas don't want to spend that kind of time waiting for Filter Forge to crank out a tile.

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Amethyst wrote:I think he has hit the nail on the head there!

If you look at it from a business perspective, it's not hard to understand. A qualified sign or vehicle wrap designer is being paid anywhere from $20 to $40 an hour plus benefits and his or her time is being billed out anywhere from $60 to $200 an hour. The 8' x 20' design he or she is doing requires three different elements: gold diamond plate, charcoal carbon fiber and some tileable photographic flames. He or she can search around at Filter Forge for filters and adapt them to render what he wants and then do the renderings and two to three hours later he or she can get back to designing. Or he or she can locate the needed tiles and download them from me in ten to fifteen minutes.

It's really no contest as long as I have what is needed.

Add on top of that the fact that the typical graphic designer has a different skill set than is needed to open up a filter and modify it or create a filter from scratch. To paraphrase Doc from Star Trek: "Dammit Jim ... I'm an artist, not a programmer." Try to explain how you can take filter A and add two nodes here and one there and adjust the lighting to make it look like something other than the presets and their eyes just glaze over.

So yes, there is a market for ready-to-use tiles and it dwarfs not only the market for filters but probably also the market for Filter Forge.

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James wrote: they could easily make a good system for selling textures also.

Very true......pretty easy to set up.....and would quickly pay for itself, not only in texture sales, but in the "draw" for new authors.....as well as keeping veteran authors involved here....

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James wrote: they would do the same when buying rendered images also.

Yup, increased traffic works wonders.....

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Sign Guy wrote: So yes, there is a market for ready-to-use tiles and it dwarfs not only the market for filters but probably also the market for Filter Forge.

Exactly why FF should get into it.....and start using it to their advantage.....

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CorvusCroax wrote: Q: Seriously, do the Genetica forums get all bunged up about this issue? A: nope!

Well the reason genetica doesn't have the same problem is because the developers make most of it's texture library rather than the users. Also anything posted on the forum doesn't mean it's royalty free and your required to ask the user -

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These usage rights apply only to textures created by Spiral Graphics. They do not apply to textures that have been posted to our forum by other parties. If you see a work on our forum that you would like to use, you should contact the creator of the work for permission.

Some would say it's ok to use a texture they made but others won't so it's the users own choice. I actually think thats a far better system and also avoids problems. FF although having the advantage of possibly more content with the library also means there is problems too as they use the user filters as part of the appeal/advertisement of the app.

I think though as StevieJ says a system like the one suggested gives back to current filter creators and makes it worth it to keep making more filters. It also advertises FF as a app and keeps it going develoment wise with the money it brings in from sales.

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Amethyst wrote: I am just wondering if anyone sells the filters they make. It seems there is a far bigger market for the actual textures themselves rather than for the filters.

Yeah i think most selling will just sell the rendered textures and keep the source filter to themselves. Probably far more secure to do it this way i think also and it means they can keep a certain trick/technique special rather than everyone knowing how to make it also.

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CorvusCroax wrote: We could FINALLY stop talking about this, which IMHO, is very toxic and un-helpful to FF

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Amethyst wrote: I do not wish to open that ugly debate either. Far too much has already been said on that subject and I feel these types of debate are harmful to FF in the long run.

Personally, I think a "constructive uproar" needs to be made about these issues in order to get FF to do something about it.....otherwise, author involvement and filter submissions quality is going to continue to die a slow death.....and negatively affect the program with this "mantra" preceding it......

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CorvusCroax wrote: If you don't want someone selling 'your' results of filter, then don't submit it!

I can't imagine that FF wants that.....ignoring it isn't going to make it go away.....and getting everyone to shut up about it so that naive new authors will come stumbling in, find out the hard way about the "texture reseller" situation, and end up getting pissed off like others have here.....isn't exactly going to help FF with good PR for the program with new authors continuously "resurecting" this issue in a far less positive manner.....

I'm "hammering" on these issues because I think that just slowly enhancing this program and ignoring everything else (author protection, progressive author incentives, improving filter quality, increasing customer traffic, etc) is not going to be enough. I really hope I'm wrong about that.....because this is one of my most used programs......and I want to see it be successful so that it will be enhanced to it's full potential for my own use.....