Filter Forge radically changing the dynamics of computer art?

Define art. For me programs like FF really raise the bar. Where I'd use to call a computer generated piece artistic I now just call it clever or even nothing at all. Before you'd have to be a hell of a programmer, now you can just push a button (remember the bevel and the lens flare). I think therefore computer art is highly overrated. I don't want to sound all negative. I think FF itself is a work of art, and filters like this one are a work of art but most of the time tools like FF will generate more 'junk' than art. Just like all web 2.0 stuff filled the web with noise. In the end a tool is still a tool, what matters is how you use it.
I think FF can change the dynamics but not the art, so I'd leave out the radically .

As for being threatened by these new tools: people will always be threatened by new things. Old school graphic designers were threathened by computers. If we use fire the bear hide market will collapse. Foreigners will steal my job. Things shift, we just have to learn to adapt.

Thanx for your insightful replies, Sjeiti and Crapadilla. I don't have a definition to "art", and if I did, it's always changing — like some sort of mad Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, by the time I've identified what it might be at a given moment, it's shifted.

But to lend some context to my original post, when I said "computer art", I was thinking of some classic animation reels I cherish — not the oldest, but I'm sure some of you are familiar with the Mind's Eye series. Beyond the Mind's Eye in particular, with its music by Jan Hammer.

I know in cases like this, there's a dangerous "valley of hype" when any tool is pushed up too far beyond its actual capabilities relative to the person using it. What made me smile about what Sjeiti said is, I think of when I was involved in electronic music, and people feared that synthesizers would replace humans. (Yeah, all that Kraftwerkian shiznit!) So again, more adaptation.

To Crapadilla: I can't say it better than "the old players have grown fat and bloated". It's like, I can't really see Photoshop, as comprehensive as it is, slimming down. Only rarely does such a massive migration like Mac OS 9 ---> X happen.

While not a 3D pro by any means, as mentioned, I enjoy the work that comes as a result, and also look forward to what comes.

What struck me so immediately about Filter Forge is both how easy it is to use, but as both you guys have demonstrated, mastery can be very deep!

My perspective relates to the online world of Second Life, where content creation is encouraged, but many amateurs and first-timers find it frustrating to model stuff to their satisfaction our of primitive objects, let alone texture them well; after seeing some of the wall and tile sets made with FF, I'm convinced therein lies a rich potential for FF to ease the pathways into content creations.

I definitely agree on the "fun of exploration" point too.

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Torley wrote: a ripe potential to radically change the dynamics of 3D modeling, including both homebrew and big-name game art development, original content creation in online worlds, and animated feature films.

My view on this is more practical.

I think that procedural textures will never replace photographic textures. I spent several years of my career working as a 3D modeler, and from my experience I can tell that the key to photorealism, which is everyone's goal, is using photographic references and photographic textures.

When you look at a procedurally-generated brick wall, it is just a brick wall, clean and shiny and all nice. If you look at a real-world wall, in a real town, near a real-world pub or a market, you'll see a lot of detail -- scratches left by a passing truck, remains of 5-year-old posters layered on each other, graffiti, stencil marks of the local utility company, moss growing in humid areas near the rain-pipe, and much, much more.

Trying to reproduce all this with purely procedural means is impractical.

However, there's a downside to the photographic textures -- there's currently no way to capture the surface height/depth information needed to make bump/normal maps for lighting. And I doubt that such a camera will appear in the near future. Artists who want depth information have either to model or sculpt their textures in full 3D, or fake the depth information as a 2D bitmap.

Since Filter Forge can output the depth information easily, it certainly has a place in a modern content-generation pipeline. Also, some operations, like Perlin Noise, are fundamental to any kind of texture work, especially in texturing -- rock and stone textures with depth info are hard to create using the traditional painting approach. I think that Filter Forge will definitely find its place in the arsenal of a professional artist.

Vladimir: You're welcome, Beyond the Mind's Eye was a big part of my childhood! Thanx also for your insights — I almost feel like I'm interviewing you! I've long been a fan of hybrid techniques, e.g., when doing electronic music, I layered synthetic 909 bassdrums with acoustic snares. Similarly, when I was doing textures before, I worked with organic elements in ArtRage to create very painterly effects that could easily be combined with some of the generative powers in Filter Forge.

infiniview, all too cool! Thanx — what's your name in Second Life? Are you the same infiniview who made this awesome work of art?

http://www.sluniverse.com/pics/pic.aspx?id=81690

I'm happy to hear you like Filter Forge, 'cuz I've found it hard to find anyone else in Second Life who also uses it, but would sure like to see it popularized for textures.

That glass almost looks like it could be an animated gel, with a baby dragon coming outta it... or something!

Yep same guy.

Thanks for posting that up by the way.

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However, there's a downside to the photographic textures -- there's currently no way to capture the surface height/depth information needed to make bump/normal maps for lighting.

http://www.crazybump.com/ is a step in this direction, generates normalmaps and heightmaps from photosrc. Much better at making normalmaps so far, but surprisingly usable. More info about it in this thread, many game artists are using this tool in their work.

I am a fine artist and designer who has started delving into the digital realm in order to go beyond the creative limitations, labor, and costs of photography. I think that Filter Forge will at least redefine the customization and creativity of the process. I had just started getting into the SDK when I came across FF about two weeks ago. I quickly dropped SDK after I started discovering that I could acheive the same thing with FF much more easily and effeciently....without wasting all of my time becoming an advanced programmer and testing programs. The only reason to pursue the SDK would be to sell the plugins.....and my interest is in producing and selling digital fine art.....

I think that Filter Forge is going to pull the carpet out from under the plugin package market....at the very least.

I'm thrilled to see so many creative brains here; it's inspiring to learn from the collective experience.

Kraellin: I agree! I've previously used some procedural texturing programs like Genetica, but found the workflow unintuitive. Filter Forge makes it easy to get great results quickly, but dig deep down into incredible detail, as we've already seen — with a lot to come, I'm optimistic. You have a really keen point about "create the tools that make the art". I'm reminded of my past doing electronic music synthesis, and being frustrated with existing tools. With Filter Forge and the growing library of user-submitted filters, if you find it intimidating to start from scratch, it's going to get easier to fill needs as you have them, or vary an existing example to meet your projects.

I should emphasize some things will feel very natural (a process... kinda like the word "procedural", hehe) and their weight may not really be realized until we look back and see how far we have come — I'm specifically referring to the growing community evolving around passion for Future Forge.

infiniview: You're welcome, and lovely to see you here!

jffe: Ah yes! I was involved in a number of those too... a lot of VSTing. I never found SynthEdit all that easy to use, altho I'm impressed by some of what came out of it. One thing I wonder about, tho, is how small the audio market is compared to graphics. In the online world Second Life, there's a terrible disproportion of many visual builders, but not a lot of people who do custom jobs in sound design. I don't know of a popular phrase referring to the sonic equivalent of "Photoshopping a picture", either.

Eric: I'm gonna look into that.

Vladimir: Thanx for the image... intriguing.

StevieJ: Thanx for your thoughts, I can relate. There are some standalone packages which have every right to be concerned... I was particularly looking at a lot of the Flaming Pear plugins (as jffe also mentioned), including Hue & Cry, which looks wonderful, but has a clunky UI (it feels very dated).

The psychadelica I've seen come out of FF so far has been awe-inspiring. Re: price point, to Vladimir, I wonder if there's any considered possibility of that coming down in the future as the usage base increases?

Meanwhile, I've been spreading word about getting more people in Second Life — called Residents — to have a close look and go at Filter Forge. The world is so texture-dependent, and I often come across Resis who want great results but aren't artists by trade, so they get frustrated and give up. Even if FF is currently priced too high for casual hobbyists, it's clearly an uber-Swiss army knife in the hands of developers.

torley,

now, there's an interesting concept that you just made me think of, a component based music creator, similar to FF but audio based. that has real potential! imagine plugging the tom-tom component into the snares and adding a 'beat' component... and just take it from there

Lika! I'd sure like to see your club. At the very least, please send me a landmark — I'll IM you! Second Life Filter Forge usage is currently "under the radar" but I feel there's such potential to make it rise; there's a shared parallel of user-driven content and a sense of community, after all.

Kraellin, hey, yeah... I wonder if there's already something like that out there. On the visual front I've been looking at some VJ software like Livid Union with really slick UI (Livid's Tactic controller looks like something outta an alien mothership!); I was thinking of new ways to "play" textures or control them live. I know this is difficult with processor-intensive filters, but one can continue to hope. And in a lot of visual art shows, Filter Forge could induce severe trippage without needing to use drugs.

Vladimir: Thx, that's a really striking point between time/money, and also, emphasis on someone who purchases it, then creates highly-used filters, then can get it for free. Now that's rewarding!

If Filter Forge 1.0 changed the way to do art and design, then Filter Forge 3.0, has made a small revolution in art and design making from my own point of view.

Also since 2007 that this thread was started, there has been THOUSANDS of new filters that opens continually new doors to new possible worlds and option to make artistic creations and better designs and with newer, innovative and creative ideas.

The great versatility and easy of use of Filter Forge is very good, for me it´s only BAD thing is that it is still mostly very slow when you want to make renders of high resolutions, 4000 x 4000 upward.

And what is also good is that there are continually appearing new filters that enlarges and widens the possible ways to use Filter Forge.

And I think the real revolution for artists will be when 4.0 arrives as it will include (I hope) a much better way to manage the filters, customize and organize them as you want, and will be fixed many issues that are now, and will be even better features than is now.

So I want to give my congratulations to the FF team for making this software and help the graphics and arts community.