Upcoming EULA changes, round 3

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jffe wrote: ----Well, as we both found out ha-ha, but yeah, for the sizes the pro's require, you best have at least a dualcore, at least, and some free time.

Or chime in on the feature wishlist to support batch rendering of filters (I started a thread to that effect a while ago)
If FF is interested in catering to the texture reselles market, that would be a rather invaluable feature! One could pick the patterns to render by day, and let them render by night.

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Conniekat8 wrote: I have no idea what you're talking about. If you have something specific to say about me, spit it out. Otherwise quit the blanket 'poor me' insinuations.

Your statement only serves to prove my point.

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StevieJ wrote: How's the new EULA coming along???

Maybe it'll come with R2 of FF.

Welcome to the corporate world
Time is money, therefore we have to spend a lot of time....

I think they'll have to finalize it sooner than that, it did cross my mind that when version 2 comes out they are going to have to identify filters in the library which will only work in version 2 so maybe for clarity the new eula would only apply to 2 as well

I've removed a few stains lately too, just don't smash all your glass

Does that mean people better get them quick before they disappear from the library

Hey it was worth a shot LOL

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Conniekat8 wrote: StevieJ wrote: How's the new EULA coming along??? Maybe it'll come with R2 of FF.

Definitely earlier than R2. Most likely, one of the upcoming updates will be dedicated to the EULA. I also plan a final discussion thread, round four. It will be strictly on-topic and I'll moderate it myself.

actually, i'd prefer the 'hey dudes...'

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Vladimir Golovin wrote: Definitely earlier than R2. Most likely, one of the upcoming updates will be dedicated to the EULA.

Phil, I believe the new EULA is basically just going to allow authors the option to restrict straight texture results from being copied and resold in texture packs without the author's permission.....not individually sell filters.....

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Genie wrote: LOL Actually the new Eula seems pretty easy to understand... Is it just me?

I wish there was an acceptable way to include plain-language explanations into legal documents without the threat of conflict between them and the formal text, but, alas, there isn't. We'll try to include a plain-language explanation on the filter pages.

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Vladimir Golovin wrote: I wish there was an acceptable way to include plain-language explanations into legal documents without the threat of conflict between them and the formal text, but, alas, there isn't.

True... But in comparison with the original EULA, the proposed one seems easier to understand.

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Vladimir Golovin wrote: We'll try to include a plain-language explanation on the filter pages.

This sounds like a good idea!

I was almost going to buy Filter Forge. I downloaded the demo and played around with it. It seemed very easy to use and seemed to fit the purposes I wanted it for. Then I came to this forum and saw all the negative posts and a change to the intended EULA and have decided against paying 300 dollars for a program I will never be happy using.

Why?

1. 300 USD is far too much for a program that offers no presets which allow commercial usage.

2. In the first day of using the program I made a very simple filter to make gingham. I see there is already a gingham making filter in the library. I would not be happy using my gingham texture for fear of being accused of using someone else's filter. There are many other filters in the library which can be very easily replicated especially as we all begin with the same features in the program and cannot add to the effects in any way.

3. The new EULA is too vague in "Insubstantially Modified Image". I had no intention of rendering textures from filters to sell but I do want to be able to texture 3D models with the textures which come out of Filter Forge without worrying about these restrictions.

4. The Starter and Basic versions of Filter Forge do not allow making ones own filters and so this makes it seem that it is okay to use the textures which are already provided by the filters in the library. I feel that the words - FOR NON-COMMERCIAL use only should be plastered all over the pages for those versions so people are aware of what they can and cannot do before purchasing them.

5. Although I understand I can use the textures for 3D models at the moment and in the next version, I would always be worried that in the future there would be further restrictions to the EULA which would eventually prevent this as it is quite possible to extract textures from 3D texture templates.

6. Although there are no restrictions for the current version, I will not be purchasing as it is possible that eventually the present version will not run on future operating systems and it will become useless.

What will I be doing instead?

Although I did like Filter Forge very much and found it very easy to use, I will be purchasing Genetica. The basic version which does everything I want it to do costs only $149 USD and includes thousands of preset textures which, from their web pages states:

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Genetica now includes thousands of preset textures, styles, and environment maps. These textures can be freely modified or used in your projects as-is.

I have downloaded the demo of Genetica and have found it very pleasant to use and the textures are very high quality.

I am only posting this because I am disappointed that such a great piece of software is suffering in this way. I am sure there are many other people who just silently go away and find other solutions. What a shame!

3Dillusions, I am sorry it has gotten to this stage for you.

This is why I am so reluctant to purchase Filter Forge. 3D texturing is not okay because, as everyone knows, textures can be extracted from the template and this has already been mentioned previously in this thread. I am too afraid that we will see 3D texturing prevented in future too and I do not want to spend weeks texturing something to be told in the future that I have to dispose of it.

Genetica comes with some very good tutorials. I have only worked through the first part but I have already made my gingham and it has more detail than the gingham I achieved in Filter Forge and took me less time to work out how to do it. Plus it is all mine to do whatever I want with!

I feel very sad as I would like to purchase Filter Forge. I loved it when I tested it out. However, with these proposed changes there is no way I will be purchasing it, either now or in the future unless there is a complete U-turn.

Dilla, precisely. To combat any misunderstandings, I'll try to include a simple-language version somewhere (I hope our lawyers won't object to that, they generally dislike that sort of thing).

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Amethyst wrote: For some reason the guys making these filters seem to think there are vast fortunes behind selling the texture their filter makes. This is far from the truth and the steps taken to prevent it is making a mountain out of a mole hill and will only damage Filter Forge in the long run. At the other forum I am now frequenting people are sharing their textures freely and this sort of nonsense is not going on. It is very sad it is happening here.

For some strange reason the guys making these filters seem to think that those selling the direct output their filters make would at least give credit to Filter Forge and the author of those textures. And if those selling the textures cared one bit about Filter Forge as a product or about not doing harm to it in the long run, then they would certainly not fail to give credit where credit is due.

But - naturally - giving credit would undercut their business, so they just do not give it. Consequence: Uninformed people not aware of the Filter Forge product buy the textures from those resellers, and the resellers get the money that should go to Filter Forge Inc. It is irrelevant whether these resellers make a fortune or not. Fact of the matter is, whatever they are making is not going to Filter Forge sales, as it should.

So, who is doing the damage here? And whose mentality is it that we should put under scrutiny?

Personally, I have nothing against texture sellers at all, as long as they sell the fruit of their own creativity, and - naturally - selling your own creations should always remain perfectly legal.

However, if I see a texture reseller peddling output straight out of FF - with no creative input on their part whatsoever - I tend to get a bit furious at them. If you benefit from something that was provided for free, you have a moral obligation not to undermine this original intent of the author and the value of his contribution. The author's intent was that it should be provided for free, not resold at a fee to others! The author's intent was that it should strengthen the usability of Filter Forge as a creative tool, not weaken the tool by being sold totally independent from it.

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Amethyst wrote: I do understand the EULA in its current form and that is why I do not like it and will not purchase Filter Forge at the present time.

Then please do enlighten us as to your reasons. If you're planning to sell direct FF output from library filters, then I can perfectly accept your frustration about the fact that this road might get barricaded by some future EULA changes. Other than that, I see no reason to be upset about these proposed changes, but I'm always glad to be proven wrong if I learn something in the process.

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CFandM wrote: Agree with 100% Crapadilla..Looks like you posted when I was typing.. Wink

Flogging the dead horse too, eh!

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Amethyst wrote: the steps taken to prevent it is making a mountain out of a mole hill and will only damage Filter Forge in the long run.

Whether this is true or not only Vladimir and the folks behind Filter Forge Inc. can say. We (i.e. the forum regulars) just do not posess any of the relevant business data necessary to arrive at an informed perspective on the severity of the problem, possible solutions and their probable repercussions for the product.

However, since Vladimir went 'official' on the issue, I'd speculate that the issue does indeed constitute a problem, and one that he does not intend to neglect!

Again, I have no business data on the Filter Forge clientele, but I find it hard to believe that Vladimir would implement any changes that would disenchant a large segment of FF customers. Consequently I'm led to the conclusion that resellers of textures are but a very small minority of the clientele, and that implementing the EULA changes would actually benefit the rest of the clientele.

I will say it again:

I am not interested in re-selling textures.

However, I do want to texture 3D models with textures I make via a tool such as Filter Forge or some other without anyone grumbling that I have somehow steps on their delicate little toes.

I am out of here as I have now purchased Genetica and I am no longer interested in FF but I will be passing on how I feel about how things are conducted here.

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Amethyst wrote: I will say it again: I am not interested in re-selling textures. However, I do want to texture 3D models with textures I make via a tool such as Filter Forge or some other without anyone grumbling that I have somehow steps on their delicate little toes. I am out of here as I have now purchased Genetica and I am no longer interested in FF but I will be passing on how I feel about how things are conducted here.

Well, everyone has the right to jump to unsubstantiated conclusions, to maintain their preconceived notions against refutation, to ignore any efforts aimed at constructive discussion and clarification, and to base their decisions on subjective bias rather than objective fact.

As the author of some popular works and who also took a part in this discussion one year ago, I would like to make my personal attitude a little bit more clear.

Sellers do positive work by selling already prepared (rendered) textures. Their customers doesn't need to spend any time for rendering. Time is money. So, sellers find where FF lose.

FF could have an official collection of rendered textures with any special offers like discount for next updates (for program and collections) for their customers. This copyrighted collection could be done from the main (factory) presets from the FF Library and exclusive variations. Copyrighted factory presets will not allow to resell them (as minimum without a link to FF).

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Crapadilla wrote: But - naturally - giving credit would undercut their business, so they just do not give it.

They have rights to do this. The real problem is another and deeper. My personal reaction was to those who was tried to make troubles for my friends and other people by removing all their messages which had any mention of "Filter Forge" or my name or any another author names from FF. One thing, when you just sell textures without any credit to those who have done it (not solidar approach, maybe, but nothing criminal here) but another thing, when you shut up all people (including those who buy it), who try to say even a word about FF. They also describe themselves as "authors" instead "sellers" and doing this they deceive their customers, FF and FF Authors lose potential customers. This kind of sellers are interested in FF's development from one side and in the same time is not interested in it's popularity. Doing their business they rough FF's and FF's Users business. That's why they're like parasites.


I noticed that some of my filters have more than thousand downloads. I can only hope to see application of my works in positive creative and merchantable projects. I'm glad if my works was useful. Just want to call to respect for strange work and business.


P.S.

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Vladimir Golovin wrote: To combat any misunderstandings, I'll try to include a simple-language version somewhere

What about simple-language EULA version on Russian and German, for example?

ok, i know this is a touchy issue, so let's be REAL careful in our reading of each other's posts! amethyst is NOT arguing in favor of the resellers or even in the proposed changes of the eula. all he/she wants is an assurance that when he/she uses FF filters in 3d models that he/she isnt going to be sued.

so, take a deep breath and read the posts twice, please.. at least twice

also, amethyst, in the case of you making your own filters in FF for use in your models, if you dont submit them to the FF library, there is no user eula covering you. in fact, if you dont submit them to the library they are covered under normal copyright law and are yours and yours alone to do with as you wish and if anyone rips them off, providing you followed proscribed copyright law, you can sue them!