"All your filter are belong to someone else!"

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Conniekat8 wrote: Fred, why don't you contact filter makers individually for now?

I have to a limited degree ... but what is missing is either the author or myself knowing what a fair arrangement would be. This is why I feel this thread could be discussing these things.

For example, as a publisher and considering the nature of Filter Forge, I think it may be logistically impractical to try to assign rendered images to authors for royalty payments. You run into issues of degree which a given filter contributes to the rendering, similar to the degree of modification discussed earlier. If I create a panel from my vectors and fill it with brushed metal from one author's filter and frame it with diamond plate from another author's filter ... who gets paid what?

My opinion is that filters should be subject to a blanket fee for their non-exclusive commercial use ... period. It's then up to each individual to get his or her money's worth.

None of which precludes any author from entering into separately negotiated licensing agreements if the market for such exists.

.....sure, as an entrepreneurial user looking to make a quick and easy buck off of selling the straight texture presets, I wouldn't want those copyright restictions on them either.....or have to pay the author more money to use them that way.....

.....but I think FF is clearly choosing the right path for success here.....

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StevieJ wrote: From FF's perspective, I think it is a very smart business move for two reasons: 1) If users were given the copyrights to texture presets when they buy the program, then every Tom Dick and Harry could quickly copy all the texture presets and open online texture stores with them.....which would surely cut into the sales of this program and deter authors from submitting them...... 2) Not many authors (besides Dilla) have come to realize it yet, but giving the copyrights to authors provides some real tangible incentives for authors to create quality texture filters to build the filter library and help sell the program.....while FF is providing a promotional vehicle for authors to sell their texture preset copyrights.....

Stivie, where did you find things you're quoting? Are they in this thread somewhere or somewhere else?

I just finished reading the entire EULA again.....and I have absolutely no doubt that this is stated, intended, and implied:

AUTHORS HOLD THE COPYRIGHTS TO THE PRESET IMAGES OF THEIR FILTERS AND NO ONE ELSE CAN SELL THEM AS THEIR OWN WITHOUT ANY CREATIVE INPUT TO THEM UNLESS THEY HAVE AGREEMENT, PERMISSION, OR CONSENT FROM THE AUTHOR

So to all you filter authors out there.....there are some very good "money-making" reasons for submitting quality texture filters here.....

I believe Kraellin just saved this topic yet again! Finally the discussion got back on track and I find that he laid the issues very clear.

StevieJ, as to not have any confusion, all those quotes do not apply YET. According to the current EULA, by which authors and users are bound, FF imposes no restrictions regarding using/selling "unmodified" renders. Even if FF introduces the restrictions in the future, they won't be able to make them retroactive.

I also agree to some points said, that people should carefully deliberate on the changes they want done, as to not make more harm than good to FF.

I also like the idea of having 2 distinct filter libraries: one, where authors give their filters without any restrictions of use and another, where use is limited.

No offense taken! Can you tell me where I can find that passage?

I just finishes re-reading the EULA and I really can´t find: "AUTHORS HOLD THE COPYRIGHTS TO THE PRESET IMAGES OF THEIR FILTERS AND NO ONE ELSE CAN SELL THEM AS THEIR OWN WITHOUT ANY CREATIVE INPUT TO THEM UNLESS THEY HAVE AGREEMENT, PERMISSION, OR CONSENT FROM THE AUTHOR." I even copy/paste the EULA to Wordpad, and have it find "preset" and... nothing. So maybe we aren´t reading the same EULA, hence my question. LOL

But I did find the following:

"You may not modify or create derivative works based upon the Product in whole or in part except that you may create derivative works based on any Filter you obtained from the Filter Library provided that (i) any derivative works are created using the Product, (ii) any derivative works are compatible with the Product, and (iii) you license any such derivative works to the Licensor and the users of Filter Library on the terms and conditions substantially similar to the conditions of use of the original Filter and pursuant to the terms of upload license published on Licensor’s website(s) or included with the Product and further provided that you may distribute such derivative works based on the Filters through means other than the Licensor’s Filter Library if the terms and conditions of such distribution and sublicensing to end users are subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. Any such unauthorized use shall result in immediate and automatic termination of this Agreement and the License granted hereunder and may result in criminal and/or civil prosecution. Any such unauthorized use shall result in immediate and automatic termination of this Agreement and the License granted hereunder and may result in criminal and/or civil prosecution. "

Now to translate: if you changed a filter, added or removed something, you need to share it in the library! I never noticed that before! LOL

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Genie wrote: I just finishes re-reading the EULA and I really can´t find: "AUTHORS HOLD THE COPYRIGHTS TO THE PRESET IMAGES OF THEIR FILTERS AND NO ONE ELSE CAN SELL THEM AS THEIR OWN WITHOUT ANY CREATIVE INPUT TO THEM UNLESS THEY HAVE AGREEMENT, PERMISSION, OR CONSENT FROM THE AUTHOR." I even copy/paste the EULA to Wordpad, and have it find "preset" and... nothing. So maybe we aren´t reading the same EULA, hence my question. LOL

Those are the proposed changes to EULA that Vladimir shared with us on the first page of this thread.

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StevieJ wrote: AUTHORS HOLD THE COPYRIGHTS TO THE PRESET IMAGES OF THEIR FILTERS AND NO ONE ELSE CAN SELL THEM AS THEIR OWN WITHOUT ANY CREATIVE INPUT TO THEM UNLESS THEY HAVE AGREEMENT, PERMISSION, OR CONSENT FROM THE AUTHOR

That's what I believe is basically "stated, intended, and implied" after reading everything in the EULA.....

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Genie wrote: "You may not modify or create derivative works based upon the Product in whole or in part except that you may create derivative works based on any Filter you obtained from the Filter Library provided that (i) any derivative works are created using the Product, (ii) any derivative works are compatible with the Product, and (iii) you license any such derivative works to the Licensor and the users of Filter Library on the terms and conditions substantially similar to the conditions of use of the original Filter and pursuant to the terms of upload license published on Licensor’s website(s) or included with the Product and further provided that you may distribute such derivative works based on the Filters through means other than the Licensor’s Filter Library if the terms and conditions of such distribution and sublicensing to end users are subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. Any such unauthorized use shall result in immediate and automatic termination of this Agreement and the License granted hereunder and may result in criminal and/or civil prosecution. Any such unauthorized use shall result in immediate and automatic termination of this Agreement and the License granted hereunder and may result in criminal and/or civil prosecution. "

That's part of it along with other parts.....which I copied and posted above from Vlads post of it on the first page.....

I will admit that there does appear to be some conflict between author's copyrights and terms of use.....which is why FF is in the process of clarifying the EULA......

I enjoy a good debate .....I have to run.....so you guys have a good evening

[quote]StevieJ wrote:
Quote StevieJ wrote: AUTHORS HOLD THE COPYRIGHTS TO THE PRESET IMAGES OF THEIR FILTERS AND NO ONE ELSE CAN SELL THEM AS THEIR OWN WITHOUT ANY CREATIVE INPUT TO THEM UNLESS THEY HAVE AGREEMENT, PERMISSION, OR CONSENT FROM THE AUTHOR

That's what I believe is basically "stated, intended, and implied" after reading everything in the EULA..... [/quote]

[quote] Genie wrote: "You may not modify or create derivative works based upon the Product in whole or in part except that you may create derivative works based on any Filter you obtained from the Filter Library provided that (i) any derivative works are created using the Product, (ii) any derivative works are compatible with the Product, and (iii) you license any such derivative works to the Licensor and the users of Filter Library on the terms and conditions substantially similar to the conditions of use of the original Filter and pursuant to the terms of upload license published on Licensor’s website(s) or included with the Product and further provided that you may distribute such derivative works based on the Filters through means other than the Licensor’s Filter Library if the terms and conditions of such distribution and sublicensing to end users are subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. Any such unauthorized use shall result in immediate and automatic termination of this Agreement and the License granted hereunder and may result in criminal and/or civil prosecution. Any such unauthorized use shall result in immediate and automatic termination of this Agreement and the License granted hereunder and may result in criminal and/or civil prosecution. "[/quote]

That's part of it along with other parts.....which I copied and posted above from Vlads post of it on the first page.....

I will admit that there does appear to be some conflict between author's copyrights and terms of use.....which is why FF is in the process of clarifying the EULA......

I enjoy a good debate Smile Big grin .....I have to run.....so you guys have a good evening[/quote]

The first section is not part of the EULA. It was posted as possible changes to a new EULA and later Vlad posted that the changes they will be making will be different from what he posted.

The second quote is from the EULA and you will notice how confusing it is. After reading it for the umteenth time, my conclusion is that it refers to the "Product" meaning the Filter Forge program and then refers to the filters separately as what is supposed to by licensed back to the Licensor (Filter Forge) by the Licensee (the End User). Nowhere in the entire agreement can I find any mention of any kind regarding the actual rendering generated by the Filter Forge application or any presets associated with any filter.

The filters are in some passages defined as part of "The Product" but the rendered output is not. The second quote is intended to protect the filter authors and Filter Forge from having the filters incorporated into a competing program. It does not in any way restrict the right of an end user to to whatever he or she wants with rendered output.

Practically their entire set was created with FF. I didn't see any textures that weren't, put it that way. I can see why this is so upsetting for some. This is quite a hard issue to chew and I hope that something comes about that will have a fair resolution for everyone.

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Genie wrote: I just did a little research on if a preset is part of the copyright of the filter. On other softwares, some presets are clearly stated copyrighted, some are not. FF only talks of the filter. Now, a filter is basically programming lingo to create an effect. A preset is a result of the filter in action. An end result, out of many possibilities, that the filter author was pleased with, and decided to record. Now, let´s say I mess around with a filter´s controls and by accident, reach a result that is extremely similar to a preset. If I sell it, I would be violating copyright? Absolutely not! Plus, if a preset is copyrighted, i would only need to change it ever so slightly to become "my preset" (if I wanted to elude copyright deliberately).

Would this be per current EULA or under proposed changes or are we speculating what 'may happen in court'?

Proposed changes don't read to me that you could make only slight changes to the preset or to the filter and avoid the copyright obligations in case of selling textures. That's the exact kind of situation they are going to try and limit, at least as far as I understand it.

Well, I think from all this that we all agree that the EULA has some ambiguous problems.....most notably a conflict between author's copyrights and terms of use....

I think FF needs to come right out and say it point-blank in legal terms as well as easy-to-understand terms like this......

1) AUTHORS ARE THE LISCENCED COPYRIGHT HOLDERS TO THE COMPONENT CONSTRUCTION AND PRESET IMAGES OF THEIR FILTERS.

2) AUTHORS WHO SUBMIT THEIR FILTERS TO FILTER FORGE THEREBY GRANT FILTER FORGE PERMISSION TO SELL, DISTRIBUTE, AND ALLOW THIRD PARTY ACCESS TO SAID FILTERS THROUGH PURCHASE OF THE PROGRAM.

3) AN AUTHOR'S FILTER CONSTRUCTION AND CORRESPONDING PRESET IMAGES CAN NOT BE COPIED AND RESOLD WITHOUT EXPRESSED WRITTEN AGREEMENT OR CONSENT FROM THE AUTHOR OF SAID FILTER.

I think adding something as simple as just this to the EULA would put all these issues to rest once and for all.....

Finally, for those who are interested in reselling an author's texture presets.....I think that most authors could use the money.....and they will be very reasonable.....except maybe Dilla who might drive a hard bargain

And is anyone going to address my question on derivative filters? I have a few of those and was wondering about it.

Agree with you again!

ok, let's translate this thing. let's break it down. this is the part of the license that some authors are objecting to and seemingly, confused about. if you break this thing down a bit, it's much easier to understand.

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1.1. License You, the Licensor, hereby grant to the Licensee a non-exclusive and fully transferable, sublicensable and assignable license without any compensation to store, load, adapt, modify, revise, transform, alter, create derivative works, install, execute, display (to "USE") the Filter in or in connection with the Filter Library, on the LIcensee's or its affiliates' websites in connection with Licensee's products and in conjunction with the LIcensee's products and services pursuant to the terms and condition of this Agreement with the right to sublicense to sublicensee(s) and end users any rights granted hereunder substantiallly on the terms and considitions set forth herein (the "License" ).

the above is NOT a legal document. i had to copy, by typing, this thing out. as such, i make no warranty here that this is an EXACT duplicate of the actual legal document as contained in the EULA. i may have made mistakes, and as such, you should refer to the actual document for any actual legal purposes!

and the following is only MY interpretation of the document and as such, is NOT a binding, legal representation or statement. it is ONLY my interpretation. you should seek competent legal help for an exact understanding of this part of the contract!

the way i read this is as follows:

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1.1. License You, the Licensor, hereby grant to the Licensee

you, the author, grant to FF

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a non-exclusive and fully transferable, sublicensable and assignable license

a license

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without any compensation

with no compensation to the author

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to store, load, adapt, modify, revise, transform, alter, create derivative works, install, execute, display (to "USE") the Filter

to do all these things mentioned or 'use' the filter

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in or in connection with the Filter Library, on the LIcensee's or its affiliates' websites in connection with Licensee's products and in conjunction with the LIcensee's products and services pursuant to the terms and condition of this Agreement

and that FF may put this in the library or on its website(s) and use it with the Filter Forge program

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with the right to sublicense to sublicensee(s) and end users any rights granted hereunder substantiallly on the terms and considitions set forth herein (the "License" ).

and that FF may license to others, the use of your filter to anyone else and that those end users have the same rights to 'use' the filter as does FF as provided by the above part of this agreement.

and putting this all together we get:

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you, the author, grant to FF a license with no compensation to the author to do all these things mentioned or 'use' the filter and that FF may put this in the library or on its website(s) and use it with the Filter Forge program and that FF may license to others, the use of your filter to anyone else and that those end users have the same rights to 'use' the filter as does FF as provided by the above part of this agreement.

or in even simpler terms, you grant FF the right to use your filter in any way they seem fit and that FF may grant that same right to others to use your filter in any way they seem fit.

that's how i read it.

i'm assuming that 'derivative work' is defined by actual copyright law. so, you shld read the copyright laws on that one. i could read it to mean that ANYTHING produced by the filter is a derivative work, including presets, since those things derived from the filter and are not the filter themselves. and therefore, per the 'no compensation' rule, an author is entitled to nothing. that FF does have a bonus and incentive program is irrelevant to this arguement. but again, do read the copyright laws under 'derivative works'. my statements and opinions are not necessarily correct, legal or binding.

therefore, authors are almost completely unprotected here, as i read it. you are assigning your rights to the filter to Ff who in turn assigns those rights to the end users so that they may use your filter unrestricted and without compensation to you.

if you read this any other way, i'd love to hear it

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Genie wrote: The question is, should we debate it on more 11 pages, or actually focus on the new EULA, new CLEAR protections of the filter authors, and clearer usage restrictions? The faster everyone comes to an agreement, the faster everything can be resolved and everyone will be protected...and hopefully happy.

Aren't FF's legal people already working on this???
By what Vladimir said, I was under the impression that they are, and we're being sort of peanut gallery here

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StevieJ wrote: AN AUTHOR'S FILTER CONSTRUCTION AND CORRESPONDING PRESET IMAGES CAN NOT BE COPIED AND RESOLD "UNALTARED WITH NO CREATIVE INPUT" WITHOUT EXPRESSED WRITTEN AGREEMENT OR CONSENT FROM THE AUTHOR OF SAID FILTER.

Bottom line.....I think FF really needs to put something like this in the EULA.....because otherwise, authors are not going to want to submit quality texture filters just to see a replay of what just happened to Dilla.....

1) Allowing purchasers to copy and resell straight texture presets would surely cut into the sales of this program and deter authors from submitting quality texture filters......

2) Giving authors the copyrights to the construction and presets of their submitted filters provides incentives for both authors and Filter Forge.....authors will create and submit quality texture filters because they can sell rights to copy and sell straight texture presets.....while helping to improve the filter library and sell the program.....

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jffe wrote: There's no undoing what's been done, and saying it has to stop now, won't work

Well, it seems as though Vlad is going to do something about it if you read the beginning of this thread.....they are currently working on new language for the EULA.....

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jffe wrote: FF is willing to literally, sue anyone

No, they wouldn't waste a dime on it.....which is another good reason for FF to "sure up" author's copyrights.....so the author would have the responsibility of protecting it......

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jffe wrote: If you don't want your designs/ideas stolen, then make sure you get paid before one single person gets ahold of them, or you = screwed

It's the only way to insure it......but I think FF wants to do everything it can to keep authors from feeling like that......which brings us back to the main reason for "suring up" author's copyright protection for filter construction and preset images......

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Sign Guy wrote: So if 1) a new class of filters was created, those that have appeal for commercial distribution in their own library, and 2) they were offered at separate fees for licenses to use them, and 3) Filter Forge handles the presentation, marketing, setting of licensing terms of use, sale and royalty payments to filter authors, and 4) publishers can acquire the legal rights they seek ... Is that not a win-win-win-win for all concerned? •Filter authors have the clear choice to submit to the "pro library" or not and are compensated if their filters sell. Filters in the free library could be moved or left there for restricted or non-commercial use and also made available under separate license in the pro library. •Filter Forge gets, perhaps, some better filters than they would otherwise, eliminates the conflict put forth in this thread, serves all its customers better, and even makes a few extra bucks. •Publishers have a clear, approved path to acquire rights to publish. •End users get a larger selection of filters to meet their needs.

VERY interesting idea, fred. two libraries, one commercial and one public or sort of open source. that's an excellent idea!

i think the drawback or barrier to overcome there would be FF's participation as the administrator of such a thing. generally, artists dont want to administer. they want to create. FF concentrates, primarily, on creating the program. artists concentrate on creating filters and using them. and, end users concentrate on using the creations of both in their own ways. so, FF administering or overseeing the commercial side of this thing may or may not be something they'd want to enter into. i suppose you never know until you ask, though.

but, i do think that might handle the entire issue. if you want your work protected, submit to the commercial FF library. if you want anyone to use your filters, presets and rendered textures, submit it to the public FF library. you wouldnt even have to change the current upload EULA. you'd simply use that one for the public FF library and write a new one for the commercial one.

so, that raises the question of whether FF inc. would be interested in being the administrator of such an entity. certainly they shld receive a portion of the fees collected on a given filter since they'd be doing the administrative work and shld be compensated. and, the authors on the commercial side could earn some well deserved compensation.

you might have to adjust the whole 'earn a free copy of FF' thing, though. i would think, just to keep things easy and simple, that earning the free copy would require your filter to have been submitted to the public FF library and not the commercial, since that was the original spirit of the thing.

this would also handle the whole grandfathering of existing filters in the library. they were published under the origial EULA and would simply remain in the public FF library under that original contract... water under the bridge and all that. some might not like that, but with my limited understanding of law, i think that's how it would have to be anyways.

another question in this idea is, would you allow an author to pick his choice of which he submitted to and if so, what criteria shld FF use in deciding if they wish to keep a filter on the commercial side? or, do you do it simply like the public side and let anyone submit and all submissions are accepted and the public simply decides what they want or dont want? i ask because, once you start calling something a 'commercial filter', that somewhat implies a better quality, a more polished product. so, do you have FF censor what goes on the commercial side, or do you leave it up to the public to decide what they want?

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Kraellin wrote: i think the drawback or barrier to overcome there would be FF's participation as the administrator of such a thing. generally, artists dont want to administer. they want to create. FF concentrates, primarily, on creating the program. artists concentrate on creating filters and using them. and, end users concentrate on using the creations of both in their own ways. so, FF administering or overseeing the commercial side of this thing may or may not be something they'd want to enter into. i suppose you never know until you ask, though.

Yes, that's their call and, at the very least they should be offered the right of first refusal. If they want to do it, they are in the best position to do it well. If they don't want to do it, that does not, IMHO, prevent any group, organization or individual from setting up a website and contracting with individual filter artists to sell their filters.

If I'm submitting a filter, I'd want people to use it as they wish. And if I downloaded a filter, I'd want to be able to use it as I wish. If someone is smart enough to sell them, great for that person. For the filter author to be brushed by this doesn't make sense to me. They submitted the filter for everybody's use. The repayment is in points from FF, from people commenting on it nicely, from people USING it. If I made a filter and saw someone selling textures made with it, I would smile. It went to good use. From my understanding, people here don't make filters for money. It's an addictive hobby and as with any hobby, some people are extremely good at it (Capadilla, etc.) and some people just do it because it's fun. If you're making a living by doing it, then don't make it public property by uploading it on a site that anyone can download it from! Capadilla--who started this thread--could make a living by just making and selling textures. Other people apparently are...with his filters! But apparently he makes a living another way and so makes the filters available to anyone, which is good for ff neanderthals like myself.

Conclusion: Leave ff as it is. If you want to make money selling textures, don't upload your filters until you've exhausted them for all their worth.

My point -- it's like buying photoshop and being worried about selling art done with it because Thomas Knoll will get upset about it...