"All your filter are belong to someone else!"

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Genie wrote: Did the Filter Makers get a raw deal? ABSOLUTELY YES! A lot of the filters I´ve seen in the library are stunning and professional! They should have been compensated for their work. Crapadilla is a good example of this - his filters are most of my favourites.

[This is going a bit off-topic, so feel free to ignore.]

I can only speak for myself on this matter, but I don't feel under-compensated at all.

The filters I created and shared are a result of dedicating time to learning the application, time I knew I would have to spend if I were to make any use of the tool in my professional work. So, investing my own time was mandatory, but getting paid for a personal investment like that is rather unheard of in my experience. The filters I have shared have returned to me in the form of three full, life-long upgradeable licenses of FF, with a fourth (and probably more) being a matter of time. That already is more return than I usually expect from a personal investment of time spent to learn something.

Granted, if Filter Forge Inc. had hired me to create these filters for them, compensation probably would have been better, but naturally, when I first started getting into FF, I wasn't exactly known back then for creating acceptable filters that people might want to use or that had any marketing value for FF.

I will definitely explore other possibilities of compensation, and in the future, I might even set up my own texture/filter "shop" as a result. As for now, filter authors will have to ponder very carefully whether they should submit their creations to the library. I know I will.

Thank you for responding, Crapadilla. I can understand your stand better now.

Yes, I do tend to over-generalize. I will try to explain my point of view better.

1 - Copy-catting Textures

First off, the job was hypothetical But to continue to use that example:

I take the Lounge Lizards filter to render an image to serve as a background for an outdoor advertisement. I do not use any presets. Instead I do a randomization and then fine-tweak it. Then I just place a frase on the bottom. Is that a copy-cat? See, to me, a copy-cat would be to sell an untouched preset image. But, if one would fiddle with it a bit, randomize, change some controls, that would be ok. I´m still unclear on this point, since it seems to depend on individual opinion, and I would like to know your opinion.

2 - Compensation of the filter makers

Ah, I´m glad that you don´t feel under-compensated! And congrats on the three full licenses of FF! Well deserved!

But the idea that I had from other filter artists was just the opposite - they were annoyed that people were making money and they were not, hence my suggestion of selling the filters instead of giving them away. And people seem to direct their annoyance to the users, when IMO it should be directed at the creators of FF.

3 - "Demonized" users and hurting FF

I didn´t mean to imply all users, but only some examples that were given and Sign Guy, who apparently is the only one speaking "on their behalf". Maybe i´m naive on this, but I really believe that people should be approached cordially and given the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty and all that stuff. As anyone tried to approach these people and open a discussion on the uses of your filters?

Until I stumbled into this topic, I believed there was no problem in selling textures created by Filter Forge. Again, If they are not presets. In fact, I was planning to sell some of my own. But let´s face it, some filters to create textures have limited capabilities for change, and one that is familiar with Filter Forge (specially an addict such as myself) will always recognize where it´s from.

I took another look at the "offending" links given before. The ones from www.slexchange.com seem to be the same image over and over, just with different colors. The ones from www.Renderosity.com are different. In particular "Lost Letter" and "Clockwork Factory" (other 2 awsome filters, by the way.) These seem to have been worked on, not just using FF, render, pack, sell. To me that seems ok. Your filter was only part of the creative process.

Does this hurt FF? I thought about this, and I believe not. FF has so much potencial, and I really believe that the current 4000 filters in the library is just the beginning. Of course, people won´t put "made with Filter Forge" or something like that on their store pages. but will they conceal it? Be a little devious about it! Contact all the people in question and say something like "hey, cool images. what´s your creation process?" or something like that. It would be interesting to know what they reply. Sign Guy didn´t try to hide it! He even directed people to the program! That only helps FF, I think. A person with a bad character would say something like "none of your beeswax".

Ok, I´ve written waaay too much and will shut up now.

Kraellin, the definition of "raw textures" is something I was trying to get at also.

As I asked above: If a user uses a texture filter, but NOT the presets (randomizes, changes the controls to their like) and sells the resulting image in a texture pack, how can that be considered raw texture? To me, it´s a personalized render. But again, some filters don´t leave much room for significant change...

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Sign Guy wrote: It appears near the bottom of the page and includes a link to the Filter Forge website. If there are any suggestions as to how better to word this acknowledgment, please let me know.

That's very nice of you to do

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Genie wrote: But the idea that I had from other filter artists was just the opposite - they were annoyed that people were making money and they were not.

well, before you label filter makers as whiny.... The person that has been most vocal about this is probably me. I'm not a filter maker. I'm a commercial user of filters, and filters that I modified, I haven't shared here (yet). If any are good enough, I probably will.

Anyway, my whole point is, I thought of rendering out a few default or near default filters myself - for a split second. And immediately following that thought was, man that would be a pretty chickenshit thing to do. It should be FF or filter makers or a combination of the two whom should be doing this.

And no, it doesn't have to do with money in my case. I have a pretty cushy job as a Director Visualizations, doing Engineering Data and Architectural Visualizations for work. Perhaps it's my job which makes me just more alert to copyrights, and fair uses, regardless of written disclaimers. Making sure that any work that comes out of 'my shop' is sufficiently derivative, or has sufficient permissions to not come under scrutiny or doubt of having misused someone else's work.

I can tell you if someone in my department took FF and tried selling default looking textures, they'd be getting a lot bigger earfull about ethics then Fred has gotten.

It's not the first time I ran into an artist or a group of artists that hasn't sufficiently protected themselves from being legally taken advantage of.

Any creative work I do (non work related) I often give as freebies. Usually it's 3D models. I always stipulate that it's for non commercial use, and commercial use requests are handled on case by case basis. A disclaimer usually doesn't prevent small time offenders and peer to peer sharing, but it may prevent mass harvest and reselling.

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Conniekat8 wrote: If the filters are of your own making, or of your own significant changes, then you really shouldn't have to note FF. I don't see anything wrong with that.

You missed the point. Wether they are my creation or not is irrelevant. If a filter is submitted for public use, then it should be expected that it will be used by the public in any way.

and on that other point of using presets, it is riduclous to include presets if you dont want people to use them. The filter and its presets are put out for public use, and as such people should expect the public to use them. Its pretty simple that way.

Rawn

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Rawn (RawArt) wrote: You missed the point. Wether they are my creation or not is irrelevant. If a filter is submitted for public use, then it should be expected that it will be used by the public in any way.

True, however, I'm not arguing whether is it to be expected or not.
I'm arguing fairness of certain types of use. Two different things.

If I leave an unattended 20 dollar bill on a fast food restaurnat counter, I can pretty much expect I'll probably never see it again. It will be my fault for not paying closer attention to where I left it (compare that to people not paying attention to the rights they're giving away). However, that doesn't mean that whomever took the unattended 20 dollar bill was doing the right thing.

I didn't miss your point at all. I just don't agree with you that it's irellevant.
Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I'm not understanding what you're saying.

Let me ask you this... you have a fair amount of filters here. I take it then you wouldn't get mad if I took all of them, rendered them out and put them up for sale, let's say on renderisity or RDNA or similar sites that you frequent?
You mean you wouldn't at least think that's a low move on my part?
I doubt you'd take it calmly. I bet you're much more likely to scream bloody murder, and I bet you certainly wouldn't think much of me for doing that. I hardly think doing something like that without asking your permission would make me your best friend.

Bottom line is, if I did that, in some small way you are very likely to feel wronged. And you would be, if it's your unchanged filter, I'm attempting to make profit out of something that was 95-100% your work. Work that perhaps you hadn't been compensated for at all, monetarily, or in a way of acknowledgement.

Being that you participate in Poser communities circles, you do know that most of that community is pretty big on crediting people for their work, especially in case of freebies, and even in cases where content has been purchased.
You know well that for example if someone purchases one of Aery Soul outfits (for non-Poser people, Aery Soul is one of most popular Poser related 3D content vendors), renders out an image, and goes around pretending it's 100% their work, it's going to raise an eyebrow. Filter use is not all that much different.

So, I'm sorry, I don't buy it's irellevant at all.

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Kraellin wrote: that folks didnt read or understand the EULA is irrelevant at this point.

I'd love to see the day when people actually read and understand fine print come to fruition. The reality of the situation is that most of us hit agree and hope there's noting grossly unfair or limiting in there. And there's a lot of people whom wouldn't fully undertand what's in there even if they read most of the fine print.

Here's something the fries me to no end, for example... I happen to like several of Constantin's filters a LOT! I also have happened to discover the default renders of his filters on sale by people other then Constantin.

I heard from Constantin that his FF demo expires Dec 1st, and he doesn't have enough HU points to get a free copy. I discovered that when I asked him if he's interested in collaborating on a project I have going, and he told me without FF he won't be able to. The project is a personal project for me, and I can't afford to just buy him a copy of FF.

Also, I believe Constantin is in Russia, very different economy. Considering russian economy, I bet he hardly has a choice of opportunities to work a little extra, and buy himself a copy.

Well, I showed Constantin where he can sell the renders of his filters, and maybe earn a few bucks to make a difference between 3HU points and the cost of purchase. And what does he do, offers to share it 50/50 (talk about super nice!). No I didn't agree to take 50% just for showing him where he could try to sell his work. If he feels like helping me get better at making my own filters, I may accept something like that

Also, EULA's are written in English, his English is hardly good enough to understand a lot of legal detail.

On the other hand, there's people making money off of his DEFAULT filters. For some, it's counted in hundreds or perhaps thousands of dollars.

Sure, people can say, well, he agreed to it. I seriously doubt he had full appreciation of consequences when he agreed to the EULA. I bet he's a talented young man whom got dazzled with the possibility of winning a copy of software which in his country could quite possibly cost as much as two months income!!!

I'm pretty sure Constantin's situation isn't all that unique. Yeah, I know, life is not fair.

Wouldn't it be nice if people whom made a fair amount of money sent a christmas gift of gratitude (few $$) for their talent to people like Constantin, instead of saying, well, I didn't do anything illegal.

Yeah, I know, I'm being a Polyanna here! Can anyone really, with a straight face stand up and say this is a fair situation??? I don't think so! (I don't wanna hear a peep about arguing like anttorney)

I happened to see in another post that there's a possibility of extending a demo for people whom have succesful filters and are waiting for moreHU points... perhaps same can be done for Constantin, so he can keep making filters?

(Sorry, to keep bringing him up, that's just the case I'm most familiar with. I hope Constantin doesn't get mad at me for talking about him.)

On the 5th page of posts to this thread, I replied to Constantin's post with the suggestion that he get in touch with me about his unreleased filters. Perhaps he missed it, but I have not heard from him about it.

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Kraellin wrote: and as for constantin, if he is indeed russian, why, he's in luck. so is the FF team (i know, i know, he's just one example of the language thing, but it was just too good not to mention )

Nice!
I'm not Russian. I live in the US, but I am a 'Southern Slav'... So I am mildly partial here

I have actually uploaded some textures that I have just opened a store in the past week. I honestly thought that we could use them (my mistake) as we wanted because I had seen a lot of great textures floating around until I happened to stumble upon here. I thought to myself "Hey, that's where and how they are creating textures."

Now my textures that I have uploaded is NOT just the presets I have messed around with the dials some and even added new dials so I could have more variations of the tile. I have seen too many that look like the same product and wanted mine to be unique. I have not put credit to FF in my read me files but I will and I am going around asking the permission of the authors who filters I have used since actually reading the terms of use, which I should have done in the first place (sorry). So, I guess my question is is this alright? If you wish I can upload an image for ya'll to judge and look at.

I do not have the full paid version yet but was planning on just buying it. I have made three of my own filters and plan on making more but I just haven't had the time the last couple of weeks. I attend college and it is getting at the end of my quarter. Crunch time as some would call it. So, I am actually contributing as well. I am not here just to take and make a profit by stealing and run.

So, any suggestions or advice on the copyright issue would be most appreciated.

Melissa

In fact I'll just upload a image to show and tell.

This is Angelboii Floor Stone Tile: And Angelboii if you see this before you get my email just now that I am sending you one.

Artress, the way you describe what you're doing, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

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Kraellin wrote: so, let's not get too heavy into the 'poor, uncompensated, struggling artist' thing here.

Hey hey now, I thought I came up with a pretty good argument, and you're raining on my parade!

(just kidding) I hear what you're saying!

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Conniekat8 wrote: Artress, the way you describe what you're doing, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Okay, thanks.

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Conniekat8 wrote: At least you're contributing back by uploading a fair amount of your own filters, so you're not exactly taking without giving anything back.

I am not "taking" anything, I am simply using FF in the way it was intended to be used...as a plug-in to help create what I wish to create. There is no mandate as to what I can create from FF. If I want to use it to enhance photos, or to make textures for my 3d products, or even to make texture sets. Its all open to anyone who has this software to use as they desire.
What would be the point of buying a software that dictates to you how you can and can't use it...that would be ridiculous.

Vlad, you can give Constantin three of my HUs for a copy if he wants it.....

Wow, not even an acknowledgement.....I guess that I've offended some people somewhere along the line

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Constantin Malkov wrote: Only understanding that "Designers" and "Sellers" will be more effective as partners but not as opposition and that this situation can "scare" young and talent designers and they won't add their works more (what will be bad for all - for FF Company, for FF Users and for those who sell our works) will finish this discussion.

I couldn't have said it better.

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Crapadilla wrote: I've actually got something in mind as far as Christmas gifts are concerned. You'll see!

I sense some excellent wrapping paper designs coming

Thanx Connie!!!

LOL..... sorry about that.....thought I was getting snubbed while doing my first annual Christmas HU give-a-way LOL....

Connie, you seem like a very nice person.....so if I can be of any help, please let me know

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Conniekat8 wrote: Hubby is geting FF for me for Christmas

Ah, the ultimate stocking-stuffer.....the gift that keeps on giving.....your husband sounds like a great man!!! LOL....

So you wanted FF instead of Bling??? PLEASE talk to my girlfriend!!! LOL....

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Conniekat8 wrote: I don't think I'll ever become a high end filter maker, since my main interest is making things in 3D

This program goes hand-in-hand with rendering textures in 3D......check out some of Dilla's excellent sphere samples.....

If you make one.....then you will want to make another one.....and another......until you are an addicted junkie like me LOL....

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StevieJ wrote: So you wanted FF instead of Bling??? PLEASE talk to my girlfriend!!! LOL....

Oh, any time! I'm the ultimate gadget girl! (or a nerdette, I suppose)
My gift to myself will be a new computer, I think
Digital cameras, mp3 players, computers, things like that, any time!