Top 2 Features

Here are the top two features that I think would be the best "enhancements" to this program.....

1) Full Compliment of Available Noise: First, a program like FF should have most of them.....if not all of them, IMHO. Worley is good....but there is only a handful of skilled authors who can manipulate them to make alot of things....which are good, but they still don't look quite right. There are many noises which would make alot of things look much better than what can be done with Worley.....it would make filters much faster without all the component-laiden constructions.....and open up authoring and editting of filter constructions to a much broader skill level so that it is not relegated to only the most advanced authors.....

2) Fractal Component(s) with Manual Formula Input: Fractals should be an integral part of a program like this.....just as much as a full compliment of noise, IMHO. I know there is an issue with tiling.....which I hope gets worked out.....

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Kraellin wrote: user controlled filter file tree

I agree.....much needed.....and I would think an easy one to do.....unless there is an issue with isolating a proprietary file manager system within FF???

My two feature suggestions (all noise & fractal components) would take quite a bit more work to implement.....but I think they would be the "best-bang-for-the-buck" enhancements to the program, IMHO.....

ok, i'm revising my two. fred reminded me of it. my number one stays the same, but two now for me is:

2. non-square images handled 'correctly', such that imported images dont get 'cut off' and wrapped around with certain components due to the seamless tiling feature.

and basically, fred's #2 is my #1, though i think he said it better than i did

now, make sure you dont let uber in here or we'll hear nothing but 'bombers! give me bombers!'

Fred, given your business, I was just thinking that "Text" component(s) would be high on your feature wishlist, eh??? I could put that feature to good use as well.....

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StevieJ wrote: Fred, given your business, I was just thinking that "Text" component(s) would be high on your feature wishlist, eh??? I could put that feature to good use as well.....

No, not really but perhaps I don't understand the benefit. I'm not looking to use FF in place of Photoshop or any of my other graphics apps. I use it to generate seamless tiles and do not have a single tile in my library that has any text in it.

Fred, I definitely agree about speed, performance, and pursuing broader markets. Like Vlad has said, the program is specifivcally designed to grow into future advancements in CPU power, speed, and performance.....

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Sign Guy wrote: My suggestion would be creating a boxed product containing a large assortment of filters and with no online access to the filter library.

I believe that Vlad moved away from that because keeping the program proprietary/tied online creates good protection from piracy and hacking.....

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Sign Guy wrote: you should take into account that there are a huge number of potential buyers of Filter Forge who religiously avoid the internet like the plague. Spam, virus attacks etc. and generally bad word of mouth have caused a lot of professional computer graphics people to limit or eliminate access to the internet on their design and production computers.

Well, I think that is more of a phobia.....especially if you're not surfing "questionable" sites.....because there are many sure-fire ways to protect your system.....but I do agree that the best way to protect a vital system and files is to totally isolate it.....

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Sign Guy wrote: When I inquired of FF two years ago about a distributor plan, their offer was a discount of 15% ... which is too meager to even be considered. Now they offer a constant 20% to 30% off to any end user.

I think there are several "considerations" to what FF is doing and why they are doing it.....FF is a small group with limitted resources.....they are based out of Russia.....which explains satellite offices in USA and Europe for currency conversion reasons.....and also goes to explain why the program is only offered online (avoid currency conversion per sale, disk creation, packaging, shipping & handling costs, etc).....

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Sign Guy wrote: The piracy argument doesn't hold water

I have to disagree with that.....I think making it proprietary to online downloads and access goes a long way to help protect the program.....made it much easier to stop/block when the progam popped up at Warez sites.....saves a ton of money in overhead costs.....makes it much easier to manage for a small group.....and I would do the exact same thing with it under similar conditions.....

With all that said, I think FF would be best served by focusing their time on "progressive" program enhancements and advanced author incentives.....

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Sign Guy wrote: Designing one's marketing and product distribution to match the way the majority of the buyers will purchase with the least resistance has considerably more to do with it.

I agree.....FF is really without any kind of marketing campaign beyond "word of mouth" with the program discounts and retailer incentives.....so coupled with the speed at which this program is progressing, I would have to assume that $$$ is the #1 controlling factor.....

Now, if Vlad released his grip and started selling stock in it, then maybe that would generate the re-investment capital needed to make this baby really fly.....

Well, you're probably right.....it would put it more "in the pipeline".....but I believe that they were packaging the product and discontinued doing it.....probably to cut costs if I had to make an educated guess to the main reason why they stopped.....

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Kraellin wrote: the more likely scenario would be for someone like adobe to buy out FF.

And what do you think they would do with a stable full of whiny filter artists?

Will any of this features be available in a future version of FF ?

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I think FF has been wasting their resources creating math and Lua components that can only be used at advanced skill levels...when they should have been focussing on a wide variety of noise components to make filter authoring less difficult to achieve things, benefit all skill levels, and significantly enhance the diversity and usefulness of submitted filters by the predominant beginner community...

Well i think the idea of new noises is great however i disagree with your comment about Lua. I honestly think that Lua is probably the best update FF has added to the program yet.

It is a amazing feature, non coders also benefit from it whenever someone releases a snippet because they are like new nodes to use that would otherwise need many nodes. It also allows you to optimize projects a huge amount and also probably do things that you could not otherwise.

As for the library i agree with that as there is definitely a lot of variants and clones. At the end of the day we can select what we want to download though and also modify or delete filters after we have them so it's not that bad.

It would be great to have some good content management features in the program though so we can add filters to our own folders and easily sort them etc, i know there is the search tool but something like custom folders that allow sub-folders would be a lot nicer in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong...I take full advantage of the Lua and Math components... What I'm saying is that it was a waste of FF resources to create these components for a miniscule percentage of advanced users...when expanding base noise pattern components would have been far more beneficial to users of all skill levels, made FF much easier to use and to create different things instead of having to keep doing complex manipulations of existing noise or having to learn Lua scripting (which 99.999% are not going to do), and FF realize an actual return by giving the beginner/novice submission community a means to expand and diversify filter submissions beyond the non-stop clones and variants that now compose the vast majority of the filter library...

Vlad will baulk at this...but I feel that the Math, Lua, and other minor "tweeks" to the program was just the easiest and cheapest way to justify new version releases and try to promote sales with it...

GMM previously asked me why FF should put its resources into noise that can be created by the community with Lua... Well, obviously that is not happening...nor is it going to happen...because by the time anyone of the small percentage of authors who reaches an advanced component and Lua skill level needed to create them, they already have the program rewards that they want and there is no further incentive to submit their hard work to FF... It's not ever going to happen unless FF finds a way to provide incentives for advanced authors to do so...

Finally, the FF team has previously stated that they would like to make FF easier to use...but then went in the complete opposite direction and made it even harder to understand and even more confusing to use...to a program that already has a steep learning curve...

In conclusion... Out of all graphics programs, which one WOULD and SHOULD have the most need and use for providing the biggest selection and widest variety of base noise patterns??? That's right...this one!!! Now we are getting somewhere...

You might be looking at it from the wrong angle though, i mean if every noise and pattern possible were added with V2, then would it be a problem if for V3+ Lua was added... It seems more of a personal feature choice thing but remember scripting was probably been high on the to-do list from the start.

You say it doesn't make things simpler however you should think of it more like there is now nodes that you can enhance or modify rather than it being complex. I say this because when there was no Lua feature we could not edit nodes then and now we have the option to it suddenly seems complex to some people, however in reality they never have to modify any code because you can still use Lua nodes exactly the same way as regular ones or avoid them if they choose to.

I agree about the other things you mention however. More noises would be great and having fractal type maths nodes would be cool also. Good organization of filters is a must and there definitely needs to be a way to make custom folders to sort them.

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Morgantao wrote: I can tell you that if the developers sat down and work on it, alot of the comunity requests would have been fulfilled within a week. As I said, this was done in LESS THAN 3 HOURS by someone who NEVER SEEN FF. Imagine what a whole dev team of people who made FF could do in that time!

The problem is that the developers team seems to only wants to work and do things according to their own priorities and what they think is important.

Even on bugs of FF take sometimes a lot of time to fix them (for example the error in custom memory management)

And I agree and it is true, if ONLY one person alone working LESS than 3 hours that have never used before FF have been able to an external application for solving most problems with the FF filter library, what could the a part of the FF developers team could do in one week ?

HOW BIG IS THE FF DEVELOPERS TEAM ?

The problem here I think is that we do not know HOW BIG is the FF developers team, it could be probably that is a small team and they canñt make all needed.

How big is dev team,

Is it BIg with 20 or 40 persons or more ?
Or is it small with 3 to 10 persons ?

Me thinks that the "user-created subfolders" issue is not being addressed because it would take some extra work to connect the usage stats system...and I'm sure there are some proprietary issues involved as well...

I would suggest that FF keep the usage stats connected on filters no matter where they are moved or modified...this would continue giving credit where credit is due...

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StevieJ wrote: Me thinks that the "user-created subfolders" issue is not being addressed because it would take some extra work...

EXACTLY!

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...to connect the usage stats system...

You lost me there! Usage stats, server side changes, filter library overhaul, etc. are TOTAL bull poop. I don't know if you read the thread about the tool I'm about to upload in a few weeks, it's gonna let you make a catalog of all the filter you have downloaded and create custom folders. Each filter can exist in as many folders as you want. If you take Fried Egg by Crapadilla for example, it could appear in FOOD, ROUND, YELLOW & WHITE, FRIED, etc. All the program does is takes the filter number and notes it under the corresponding folder. It has nothing to do with usage. It has nothing to do with where on your hard drive the filter is located. It has nothing to do with who made the filter, what version it is, how many people downloaded it or anything.

IT'S A FREAKING NUMBER in a FREAKING XML FILE that holds FREAKING FOLDER NAMES!
I'm really holding myself back here fr om hitting the F key, this is driving me MAD
I'm no genius by any standard, but you don't have to be a rocket scientist to make a list of numbers!
Think of it has having a notebook, wh ere each page has a category written on the top. All you have to do is write down the numbers of filters that you think belong under that category. NOT BRAIN SURGERY! A second grader can do that!

StevieJ, Sorry if I'm lashing out, but I'm sick of people trying to give excuses for FF inc's incompetence. Seriously, if anyone from FF inc. wants me to give advice, pointers, emotional support or ANYTHING, please contact me. JUST GET IT DONE!

I think that the feature of customizing and organizing the filters and arrange them in a way that you can MANAGE AND FIND THEM MORE EASILY and be able to USE THEM in a much better way having the library MORE THAN 8500 Filter is a VERY IMPORTANT AND VERY HIGHLY NEEDED PRIORITY !!! and is not just a SIMPLE thing that is missing.

Of course that not everyone will have ALL the more than 8500 filters, and I do not have them, but even with HALF of them is really a mess and very hard to manage (I really do not know I have installed in m y own FF, probably 2500, but do not know)

Thankfully, we will not have to wait a year until FF 4.0 will be released, as the very kind and helpful Morgantao´s brother-in-law will be helping ALL the FF community with his very good tool to organize, customize and manage our own FF filter Library

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Morgantao wrote: SpaceRay, you're living in the past - There's more than 8600 already 8617 to be exact, at the time of writing these lines.

Oh yes, I am sorry I did NOT check back again how many filters are NOW in the library, thanks for the updated information, although I have not put a wrong information as I said that there was MORE than 8500 filters, and for me 8617 is MORE than 8500

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Morgantao wrote: BTW, the tool I will be releasing soon will be an invaluable asset to anyone who did the mistake of buying the FF library backup CD. As there's no way to CHOOSE your filters from the CD the way you can from the online library, the tool will allow you to brows the CD and decide what filters you want.

Your tool will be a very helpfull, usefull, life saving and time saving and greatly invaluable thing for everyone that uses FF and not only for the ones that have bought the Library backup CD.

By the way I am one of those that have made the mistake of buying the Filter Library backup.

BY the way the link to the thread I have put about this is this one here

If I buy the Filter Forge backup library, How to install SELECTIVELY ?

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Morgantao wrote : I know. It's your post about choosing filters from the backup CD that made me think of it.

Yes, when I bought I did NOT think about it and now I wanted to update it but will not buy again unless I could make a selection, but is not possible, so because of this I have NOT bought it a second time.

I have prefered much better to use the FIlter Forge Browser inside FF and this one works very well with all the online library and hiding the filters you have downloaded already you just have select and choose all the ones you like and the after click on download.

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Morgantao wrote: I know you like the OBSOLETE filter browser, and would like to have an option to see only the filters YOU HAVE, just like there's an option to show only the filters YOU DON'T HAVE, But since it's deemed obsolete by FF inc, there won't be any updated and upgrades to it.

YES, IS TRUE, I LIKE VERY MUCH the Filter Forge Browser, is this a SIN or bad thing ?

I am the only one to use it and that finds it very helpful and useful ?

WHY is the Filter Forge Browser considered OBSOLETE ?

How is this compared to the Obsolete components in Filter Editor?

WHY it will not be updated and made it even better AND use it for EVEN MORE THINGS ?

It would be a VERY BIG AND HUGE ERROR TO REMOVE IT IN FF 4.0 and they would take out the FF browser, UNLESS they change it for an updated different browser.

The FF browser is very useful and helpful to view the filters IN A MUCH BETTER way than is possible with the really very tiny small filter list that is shown in the left side in the filter list, AND IS INVALUABLE AS MASS FILTER DOWNLOAD. Why would FF force to download filters one by one if they remove the FF browser? I do not think they will do it.

Thanks for ALL the answers you have given, I agree with you.

The TWO MOST NEEDED Features for Filter Forge 4.0 is in my personal opinion :

1 - Optimize the render speed and make it faster and do not have to wait 20 minutes (or more) for a 4000x4000 render result in a complex filter.

2 - Update the whole FF Interface, and make things inside it much easier and manageable and this includes.

- Have a dettach panel interface if possible and not a fixed one as now

- Be able to resize the panels and that the content thumbnails inside gets reorganized according to the size available (as it happens now with the preset part, but also in the filter list part)

- That in the filter list window or panel there is a management tool to organize, create customized folders and move the filters as you want, and be able to add keywords and more information to those filters.

- That in presets panel or window part you could be able to organize the presets, give numbers and/or names, and be able to delete factory presets or at least be able to position the presets in the ordr that you want and need.

- Include a better Filter browser and so is not anymore obsolete.