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9 MONTHS with this bug and still without a fix, solution or news

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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

Posts: 8250
Filters: 33
Please, I would like to ask if we could have any possible news about how is it going the works about fixing this bug of "bad allocation" that I think was
already SINCE 6th SEPTEMBER 2011 !!!

AND since 9 MONTHS AGO that this bug has been reported the ONLY answer that comes from the developer team is

Quote
Thanks for reporting this error. This is a known problem, the developers are working on it. Hopefully it will be fixed in the nearest future.


At least I would like to know if we have to wait until FF 4.0 is out or it will be possible to have it fixed with FF 3.0.

In 3 months more (and this will happen as I do not think this will be fixed before) we will be able to celebrate the first year of life of this bug and make Bug Birthday celebration

Please for more information about this I suggest to read also the threads here below.

Here of all the threads related to this error

SEPT 2011 # XFW::Kernel::StdException>

Please, MORE information class XFW:Kernel:StdException> bad allocation

HUGE Resolutions = FAIL

Error when saving a 10,000 x 5,000 render

FF3 crashes frequently while long renders for big files

Help with an error (bad allocation)

<class XFW::Kernel::StdException> bad allocation

I wanted to help making al so this other thread to put bug error reports from other persons, but seems that there is only mine, perhaps because they did not know about this thread to put them.

High resolution rendering test bug report compilation inside here


I think that if the problem is related to the custom memory manager inside Filter Forge, I do not see any kind of fix other that rebuilding or modify this custom memory manager, BUT perhaps this will not be possible until FF 4.0 probably.
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

Posts: 8250
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Would be possible to have a bit of news about this topic ?

Because on all the threads above there is no news from FF team about this
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

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Next week will be 10 months since this bug was reported and there is still no news about any possible fix for this.
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Morgantao
Can't script

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I'm not really into programming, and don't understand much about 32bit vs 64bit applications, but from what I've been told, a 32 bit application can't use much more than 1.5GB of RAM before crapping out.
While FF uses a custom memory manager, it still uses pretty much all it can being a 32 bit app. That means that without rewriting FF from the ground up in 64bit, or a genius way to get more than 32 bitian ammounts of RAM, we'll have that max memory cap on FF.
That being said, if the bug is isolated and fixed, it's going to solve FF's biggest problem, which is the bad allocation error. Then it's only a matter of render time, without crapping up in the middle of a 3 hour render.
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

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Quote
Morgantao wrote:

Then it's only a matter of render time, without crapping up in the middle of a 3 hour render.


Yes, this is what I want, as FF is very slow with some filters that are complex (or FF self generated) in high resolutions, at least I could leave to render in 1 or 2 hours and then have the final result, BUT now is not possible because about half an hour later it usually gives this error and then nothing is done.
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Casual Pixels
Dilettante

Posts: 86
Quote
or a genius way to get more than 32 bitian ammounts of RAM


There are very well-known and easily implemented ways to cope with memory requirements exceeding either the physical limits (the amount of memory installed) or address limits (32bit, in this case).

No genius required.
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Carl
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Quote
Gilles D wrote:
There are very well-known and easily implemented ways to cope with memory requirements exceeding either the physical limits (the amount of memory installed) or address limits (32bit, in this case).

That would be interesting to know more about as I have the problem of FF crapping out on me [ like the others mentioned ] with any large size, a bug thats only solution is blow up a smaller rendering to size. Which is not satisfactory for high end gallery work, where the work is generally 40 inches or more. I can live with all the other bugs which you can work around and all the request for new noises, folders ect, but this bug there is no satisfactory work around smile:(

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Morgantao
Can't script

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Noises and folders etc. are all nice to have NEW FEATURES, needed to address mild inconveniences. Here we are talking about a major BUG.

The main difference is, if you don't like the features, or lack of features, just don't buy the software. A bug is something that isnot supposed to be there, and is not part of your desicion making process when buying the software.

If we compare this to the car industry, then folders and noise types are like SatNav (GPS), individual climate control for each passenger and bucket seats with 5 point harness. If you find these a must, go buy a car that have those.
The Bad alloctaion error is more like the Toyota's unintended acceleration problem from 2009-2010, which caused the car to randomly accelerate to breakneck speed. Toyota had to recall their cars. Fortunatly, software bugs can be solved with an update smile:D
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

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Quote
Morgantao wrote:

The Bad allocation error is more like the Toyota's unintended acceleration problem from 2009-2010, which caused the car to randomly accelerate to breakneck speed. Toyota had to recall their cars. Fortunatly, software bugs can be solved with an update


Did Toyota take nearly 10 MONTHS to replace and fix the cars ?

Software can be solved with an update BUT this is possible ONLY IF they know and find a way to fix it, that seem is not the case here, and although the FF Team may be working hard trying to solve and fix this bug, they had not had any sucess yet, unless they need to modify the core code and use the FF 4.0 new code to be able to fix it and that may be why it is taking so long for the fix.
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Morgantao
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Quote
Did Toyota take nearly 10 MONTHS to replace and fix the cars ?

Probably not. Then again, the bad allocation error is not exactly life threatening smile:D
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Carl
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This is something that I find a problem, hence my previous post ........ but ..... I can't help thinking that there is two possible reasons that this hasn't been resolved. {1} FF doesn't care and are just working towards the new version FF4 ... or..... {2} The problems solution has eluded the FF team and they have no way of fixing it.
I would think that if they could resolve it they would, so it's much more likely number {2}. So presuming it's {2} harassing serves no purpose but to stain the forum [ and this goes for all other ongoing bug complaints ] smile;)
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Skybase
2D/3D Generalist

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{3} They're trying to solve the issue to the best of their abilities.

We're not dealing with Adobe folks. They can have 100s of developers and engineers working on one program at a time. They can fix bugs quickly and make updates within a month. Smaller development teams can't do the same. Can't always put loads of pressure and expect solutions immediately.

Also, make sure you list what you did that causes the issue! Write the steps down in detail about what you did that causes the problem to occur. Don't just post the error message on the wall and expect problems to be solved. Issues that can't be replicated are harder to track, especially in a program with tons of functions like this.

I don't know what filterforge is doing really, and I do hope those problems get solved. But I also really think you shouldn't continuously bug *ahem* the people who make the software work. I swear, sometimes just explaining the problem, sending a message, and saying Thank You is probably better than "10 MONTHS IN, OH MAN NONE OF THESE ISSUES ARE SOLVED." I know you don't mean it like that, but the whole thing just sounds like a bunch of rambling. And sure, some problems are irritating, but again, don't post ramblings, post how it happened or what you did and if any, follow directions given by the devs so they can resolve the issue smoother.

This is just based on my experience working with a team of developers.

k done here. Doing art now
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Morgantao
Can't script

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Skybase, I agree with what you said, but I think your {3} is kinda part of Carl's {2}. I don't think they gave up on trying to solve this, it's just they haven't found a way to solve it YET.
As you said, it's not like FF inc. has the resources of Adobe, Microsoft, Apple etc. so it may take sime to solve.

I agree that it's important to give a detailed account of what you did before you got the error, but in this case, it kinda goes like this:
"I tried to render a 4000x4000 or larger image".
It's not any specific filter or image or resolution that makes FF spew this error. It seems like all filters have the potential to crap out with bad allocation, given high resolution jobs.

Also, littering the forum with the same bug over lots of posts is not good conduct. There's a bug report forum, and all posts about one bug should live under the same thread.
It's ok to bump the thread every once in a while, but not three times a day, unless you have any new info or something usefull to add.

The one thing that bugs me the most though, is that FF can't reliably render high resolutions, and it's a known issue, but one of the key selling points for FF pro is unlimited resolution.
If it don't work, don't advertise it. There are others reasons to buy pro, that actually work.
One last thought: It would be a real shame to see FF5 come out with this bug still pending. Adding new features is fine and dandy, but you can't charge people upgrades without fixing "Legacy issues".
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

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Quote
Carl wrote:

{2} The problems solution has eluded the FF team and they have no way of fixing it.
I would think that if they could resolve it they would, so it's much more likely number {2}. So presuming it's {2} harassing serves no purpose but to stain the forum and this goes for all other ongoing bug complaints


I also think that they are working on it, but until know have not found a good way to fix it with the FF 3.0 code core, and I think that they need to rebuild it to be able to fix it and that this takes much work to do and that is why is taking so long.

Harassing would not be needed IF someone from the FF team COULD EXPLAIN in a simply way WHY this happens and WHAT they have done until now, and WHY they did not have been anle to fix it, I would perfectly understand it and would not complain anymore, BUT WHAT I DO NOT LIKE IS THE ABSOLUTE SILENCE FROM THE FF TEAM and we have to keep guessing what can be happening without any clue about it.

Quote
Skybase wrote:

Also, make sure you list what you did that causes the issue! Write the steps down in detail about what you did that causes the problem to occur. Don't just post the error message on the wall and expect problems to be solved. Issues that can't be replicated are harder to track, especially in a program with tons of functions like this.


To help the FF team I have already sent about many FF bug reports to the FF team explaining what happens when I get this error and so they can know when and why this happens and so they can reproduce it better, although always the answer has been that this is a known issue and they already know about this.

How many of you have sent many bug reports explaining what happens and why happens?

Quote
Skybase wrote:
I don't know what filterforge is doing really, and I do hope those problems get solved.


This is the MAIN problem for me, we do not know what is happening, there is no news, report, explanation or anything from the FF team that could help understand why this is bug has not been fixed yet, and so I could be in the know and be able to be patience and wait for the solution to arrive, and not keep asking for this, BUT as there is NO NEWS from the FF team you do not know what is happening.
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

Posts: 8250
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I have tried to HELP the FF team making a new thread for the compilation of "Bad allocation" bug reports so they can be able to know it better, but have got no answer.

High resolution rendering test bug report compilation inside here

Also asked politely for more information about this bug in this other thread and the same, had no answer yet.

Please, MORE information class XFW:Kernel:StdException> bad allocation

Quote
Morgantao wrote:

The one thing that bugs me the most though, is that FF can't reliably render high resolutions, and it's a known issue, but one of the key selling points for FF pro is unlimited resolution.

If it don't work, don't advertise it


YES!!! I totally AGREE on this !!! FF Inc. put in the features page:

Quote
Huge Resolutions
The biggest one we tried was 65536x65536 pixels – and it worked! Granted, it took hours, but anyway!


Well perhaps it worked for them BUT when I try to make a simple 4500 x 5000 (more than ten times lower than 65536) it gives me the "bad allocation" error so this is NOT true and is wrong and false that you can have HUGE RESOLUTIONS smile:evil:

FF Inc. could be forced to pay much money for false advertising and cheating in the features of FF 3.0 as it has already happened in some other software companies I know.
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Morgantao
Can't script

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Quote
FF Inc. could be forced to pay much money for false advertising and cheating in the features of FF 3.0 as it has already happened in some other software companies I know

How many of them are based in Russia? smile;)
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Carl
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Quote
SpaceRay wrote:
COULD EXPLAIN in a simply way WHY this happens and WHAT they have done until now, and WHY they did not have been anle to fix it

Does it really matter or change anything, onyx already explained what they think is the problem, as you have quoted yourself. I think within FF's 10 member team they do not have a pr person and over the years it has become apparent that they do not handle this side of there business always perfectly.
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

Posts: 8250
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Quote
Morgantao wrote:

How many of them are based in Russia?


Although the FF team may be Russian the FF Inc. company is a United States company based in Alexandria so it must comply to the United States Law.

Quote
Filter Forge, Inc.
901 North Pitt Street, Suite 325
Alexandria, VA
22314 USA


As far as I know in the False Advertising Law is included if you put numbers that are not true and can´t be done with the software they are selling and they do not give any explanation on why this is happening and what they are doing to fix it.

False advertising Law From Wikipedia

US Code - Chapter 47: Fraud and false statements

ALso there is the USA BBB - Better Business Bureau that also have the Code of advertising

Of course that for this to happen a buyer of FF must go against FF Inc. and I would never do that (because I like much FF), but also the consumer association could do it if they know it.

Quote
Carl wrote:

Does it really matter or change anything, onyx already explained what they think is the problem, as you have quoted yourself.


Please, can you tell me if Onyx belongs to the FF team and is part of the developers team that are trying to fix it?

Well for me is important and it matters that someone from the FF team could be so kind and take the time to tell us what and why is happening, and what they are trying to do to fix it and why they can´t have not been able to do it until now.

I most probably (depending on the explanation) would be satisfied with this and understand it and do not keep asking, bothering or bugging the company with this.

What I do not like from FF is the total silence about most of the requests, bugs, and feature wishlist asked.

Seems that GMM is only allowed to answer and give a fix to simple problems that may happen with installation or errors with the operative system, or some other kind of errors that are not a bug of FF.
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Skybase
2D/3D Generalist

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... you guys ever thought about sending actual mail? lol

And also... FilterForge... please explain what the hell is happening, some of your customers are damn disappointed right now.

It's pretty hard to ignore these kinds of posts when you have 3 or 4 separate threads everywhere. Keep the numbers down for the sake of organization and good accordance with forum usership. I should really remove myself putting more oil on fire. smile:|
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Morgantao
Can't script

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Quote
Of course that for this to happen a buyer of FF must go against FF Inc. and I would never do that (because I like much FF)


I don't think FF inc. is in danger of lawsuit from you, me or any of the users that are on the forums. The problem may arrise from a new customer, buying FF specifically for extreme resolutions.

For FF inc.'s defense though, you have a free month of FF Pro to test it, see if you like it, if it works for you and if you can achieve what you want with it.
If withing this month you had a constant bad allocation error, and ask around and find out there's no way to fix it, simply don't buy it.
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

Posts: 8250
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I am making some tests to verify one theory that could break all this and give a surprising good result and a fix to this bad bug by ONLY using FF as plugin and never as a standalone.
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

Posts: 8250
Filters: 33
HERE IS A POSSIBLE SOLUTION AND FIX

As said I have been making tests with at least 30 filters using ONLY FF AS A PLUGIN OF PHOTOSHOP and a resolution of 10.000 x 10.000 pixels and have been able to use 28 filters WITHOUT this unwanted bug !!!!

If you do not have Photoshop, there are other possible software hosts for FF

SO if you want to avoid this "bad allocation" bug, please try to use Filter Forge as a plugin instead of the standalone version and will be able to render in high resolution WITHOUT PROBLEMS, well probably, as I got this bug 2 times during the test.

I do not know if it is important that I have 16 GB RAM. I know that FF can´t use more than 1,5 GB RAM, but Photoshop and Windows can use the other part of the RAM that is not used by FF.

I do not know what happens in a computer that have only less RAM, or that are 32 bit and have only 3GB for everything

ALSO I do not know if this test I have done could also be a good test for MacOS users, as I can´t test it in a Mac.
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Skybase
2D/3D Generalist

Posts: 2784
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Least on the Mac end, I've been rendering resolutions over 5000 width no issues on standalone. I rarely use FilterForge as a plugin. On seeing this post I thought I'd give it a shot so I rendered 20,000x20,000 of one of my filters. So far no issues. I also rendered at various resolutions. No issues so far.
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

Posts: 8250
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So this is only happening in the Windows side ?

I have tried to make a 25.000 x 25.000 rendering BUT after 4 hours waiting it was ONLY 25% completed smile:evil: so I stopped it
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Vladimir Golovin
Administrator
Filter Forge, Inc.
Posts: 3147
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Our tests suggest that this crash happens on machines with large numbers of downloaded filters. If this is true, then the root cause of the problem is a design flaw in our client-side filter storage system. We'll be taking a closer look at this later this summer, after we release FF4.0 beta 1.
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

Posts: 8250
Filters: 33
OH!!! The first news about this bug in 9 months !!!!! Thanks for answering

Quote
Vladimir Golovin wrote:

Our tests suggest that this crash happens on machines with large numbers of downloaded filters.


Well, I have only 1400 filters downloaded and do not know if this is considered "large number" and it happens nearly always when using the standalone.
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

Posts: 8250
Filters: 33
Quote
Skybase wrote:

Least on the Mac end, I've been rendering resolutions over 5000 width no issues on standalone. I rarely use FilterForge as a plugin. On seeing this post I thought I'd give it a shot so I rendered 20,000x20,000 of one of my filters. So far no issues. I also rendered at various resolutions. No issues so far.


Thanks very much for your answer and testing and show what happens on the Mac side and good that it does on happen to you.
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Carl
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Quote
Vladimir Golovin wrote:
large numbers of downloaded filters.

I only have 391 downloaded filters, but I do have 4283 of my own filters, do you think that effects it.
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SpaceRay
SpaceRay

Posts: 8250
Filters: 33
Quote
Carl wrote:

4283 of my own filters


smile:eek: smile:eek: smile:eek: smile:eek: all 4283 are inside the "my filters" folder ???? smile:?: smile:?: smile:eek: smile:eek: smile:eek:

How do you find the filters there ? smile:?: smile:?: smile:?: smile:?:
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Casual Pixels
Dilettante

Posts: 86
Quote
That would be interesting to know more about as I have the problem of FF crapping out on me


Sorry; I should have been clearer. There's nothing a user can do. There are some very straightforward ways of dealing with it as a developer. Memory management is an extraordinarily important topic and the difficulty of getting it right is often underappreciated by coders. It seems as though it should be much easier than it actually is.

How difficult a fix is to retro-fit, though, is entirely dependant on the architectural decisions made when the code was originally developed.

If things were originally done right (or at least structurally right), these kinds of changes can be a few lines of code. If originally there were some ill-advised decisions made, however, it can be an absolutely overwhelming and monumental task which is extremely time consuming and error prone.

And it's not just allocation / deallocation which is the problem. Here, it sounds like a memory request is made, one which cannot be fulfilled by the OS but the application either doesn't realize and tries to continue operating or otherwise doesn't cope gracefully with the failure.

At that point, if you want to guarantee that the application completes (even if very slowly) then you need to recognize that you can only get some fraction of the memory you need, and then proceed by strategically paging memory out to disk.

Again, not trivial to implement if you've gone about things without thinking about this kind of scenario before starting to code.
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Carl
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Quote
SpaceRay wrote:
How do you find the filters there ?

Welcome to my nightmare smile:D now you understand why I have been pushing for folders, I didn't realize how many I have till I checked smile;)
Quote
Gilles D wrote:
I should have been clearer

I probly should have read it better smile:D
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